35 lbs of Muscle and Six Months of Rest Between Workouts?

Mark on Florida beachOver the decades of doing what I do I’ve come into contact with many thousands of people. Some of them stay in regular contact from year to year and let me know how their training is going. There are so many great stories out there.

Mark Winchester is a longtime customer who has been in the weightlifting game a long time and is, among other things, a perceptive observer of the craziness that occurs in the world of pro bodybuilding and in gyms everywhere.

There a recovery spectrum of training frequency for every human. It stretches from the first day after a workout that he could return to the gym and be stronger, to the last day he could wait before he would be weaker.

Mark pays close attention to how soon he can return to the gym. Over the years, he’s discovered it is months, not days or weeks, before he is fully recovered and can make new gains. Gains like 35 lbs of lean body mass using Power Factor workouts of just two exercises.

I asked Mark a few questions about his training and here are his answers.

1. When did you first try a Power Factor workout and what exercises were included in your workout?

I had read about PFT as far back as 2005 but couldn’t grasp the concepts. It made no sense to me to limit the movement of the bar a few inches as everything I had read up that point had instructed you must use a full-range of movement. I had reached a point in my training where I was severely overtrained and my knees were sounding like sandpaper. I had eroded the connective tissue so much it was wearing away from my deep butt-to-the-floor squats.

The first exercise I tried was at that time my favorite, the squat.

2. Over the years, how have you adapted your Power Factor workouts and why?

One of the most important aspects of PFT is the recognition that recovery from intense exercise takes much, much longer than commonly assumed.

In the book the microscopic examination of marathon runners quadriceps made a lot of sense to me. The higher the intensity, the longer complete recovery takes, and utilizing training systems such as PFT or the even more intense SCT requires a much longer recovery period than conventional training. It also is much more productive.

I continue to be totally amazed as to just how long complete recovery can take in some individuals with a low tolerance for intense training. The people usually have very sensitive (i.e., efficient) systems and as such receive larger gains per workout than most people.

It seems to follow a bell curve system of distribution with people with low tolerance and people with high tolerance on the outer edges of the bell. I’d estimate these people (both groups) account for as much as 20% of the population, possibly more.

3. Can you tell us some of your statistics?:

– Age? – 47

– Height? – 5’8″

– Weight? – 245lbs (approx. 18% bodyfat)

– Fat loss from PF training? – I have no idea, but more muscle burns more fat. After age 40 diet doesn’t seem to play as big a part in fat gain. I suspect it might have more to do with insulin resistance.

– Muscle gain from PF training? – Once I figured out just how long total and complete recovery for me personally takes I’d estimate I’ve gained around 35lbs+ of lean body mass.

– Size gains from PF training? – Like the fat loss question I honestly don’t know how much larger I am. A lot, safe to say.

4. What does your workout consist of these days and how often do you do it?

My workout consists of only two exercises. The Deadlift & the Bench Press. Both done using no more than 2 inches. of movement. In my opinion, the Deadlift will provide all the gains anyone needs.  The benefits of extra exercises provide are at best negligible. This was discovered with the “Healthlift’ over 125yrs ago.

Last workout I used 515lbs in the Deadlift and 425lbs in Bench Press. I do both exercises for two sets for less than :45 seconds total training time each.

My last recovery period was an unbelievable SIX months and I’m seriously questioning if that was enough. I’m going to try seven months this current recovery period.

My last workout was Sept, 2 & I won’t lift again until probably next March if not April. As ridiculous as this sounds the dramatic gains I get are worth the rest. For example, last October I was 213lbs, I am now, as I earlier stated, 245lbs. I logged two, yes TWO productive workouts in that time.

5. Have you stopped trying to explain yourself to other people in the gym, or do you still try to educate them? Haha! 

I always try to explain Power Factor training and logical training to people. My own physician thinks I use steroids. After a testosterone lab test she doesn’t think it anymore. My physician honestly questions my sanity when I tell her I exercise for less than two minutes total training time no more than two times per freakin’ year. She says, “I’m a medical professional with seven years of training, and there is no way that can be true“. It is.

6. I know you’re a big fan of Arthur Jones and his work? Do you have a favorite story or quotation from Jones?

I have two articles written by Arthur Jones that I live by. Here they are:

#1 > “From my study of animals I became aware of the fact that very little in the way of exercise is required for building enormous levels of strength and muscular size. How do you like the muscular size of a gorilla? Or a lion? 

Yet, both gorillas and lions actually perform almost no exercise or hard physical activity. But, when they do work, they work very hard … but very briefly, and not very often. If it works for a lion or a gorilla, why shouldn’t it work equally well for a man. Well, in fact, it does work well for a man. An adult male lion can get over a ten-foot-high fence with a 500-pound cow in his mouth. 

At a bodyweight of more than 500 pounds a gorilla can perform a one-armed “chin up” so easily that he appears to weigh nothing. A wrist that measures more than eight inches on a man is huge, and nine inches is unbelievably large, yet my gorilla had wrists that measured more than thirteen inches, larger than most bodybuilders’ forearms at the largest place. His neck was over forty inches in size.

I strongly suspect that if you exercise a lion or a gorilla as much as many bodybuilders train that you would probably kill them, and it is certainly obvious that they do not “need” that much exercise. Neither do you; and even if you can “stand” it, it does not follow that you “need” it.

Go to the gym, perform your workout properly, then get away from the gym and forget it until time for your next workout; talking about exercise, reading about exercise, literally “living” exercise will do nothing in the way of improving your results. Before you try anything else in the way of attempting to improve your results from exercise, try doing “less” exercise; not more, less. 

If and when that simple point worms itself into your brain, then I have probably taught you the most important thing that you will ever learn about exercise.”

 

#2 > “Insofar as I can determine, there is no known drug that will improve the performance, or increase the muscular mass, of a healthy individual. Furthermore, I would like to go record at this point by stating…’I do not believe that such drug will ever be discovered. I think that such a result from any chemical is impossible.’

I am fully aware that some drugs can improve the condition of a weakened individual, in cases of sickness or accident…but I also believe that a state of normal health is possible only in the presence of a very delicate chemical balance that is regulated automatically by the system. If any chemical is added for the purpose of upsetting this balance, the result can only be counterproductive.

In effect, there is no such thing as a “super chemical balance”…if the chemical balance is normal, you are healthy…if not, you are sick…and it matters not whether the state of imbalance is produced by too much or too little of a practical chemical. This has been proven repeatedly in literally thousands of tests conducted with animal subjects, and no slightest evidence exists in support of an opposite result with either animal or human subjects.

Certain hormones will help add muscular mass to a steer, or a gelding…but they will NOT produce the same result with a bull or a stallion. When an animal has been castrated, removing the testicles produces an abnormal situation where normal growth is impossible, giving such an animal the hormone drugs merely tends to restore a normal situation, a situation that would have existed naturally if the animal had not been castrated.

In such cases you are merely removing something and then trying to replace it in another manner; first creating a subnormal condition and then trying to restore normal health.

Yet the widespread bias in favor of such so called “growth drugs” borders on hysteria. Even suggesting that the use of these drugs is anything less than necessary automatically labels you a fool in some circles. And there is certainly no doubt that a lot of people are being fooled on this subject; but you can NOT fool your endocrine system, and when you add an un-required chemical for the purpose of disturbing a normal balance, you are NOT improving the situation.

Pointing to recent strength records as proof of the value of such drugs actually proves nothing. The fact remains that the single strongest human recorded in history established his records long before the drugs were ever used. Paul Anderson established records prior to 1958 that have never been approached and androgenic-anabolic drugs were apparently first used in athletic circles in 1960.

Bob Peoples established a deadlift record thirty years ago, lifting nearly 800 pounds at a bodyweight of approximately 180; today, a very few individuals have reached or passed that level of performance…but most of them weigh nearly twice as much as he did, and some of them weigh more than twice as much.

Men who establish such records are merely statistical standouts, literally genetic freaks; they are NOT the products of drugs, regardless of their opinions on the subject.

Great strength is a result of two factors…(1) individual potential, which cannot be improved…and (2) hard training, which will increase the strength of almost anybody.

But a third factor exists as a prerequisite…NORMAL HEALTH, without which, reaching the limits of potential strength is simply impossible. So you can improve a sick individual in some cases, but you can NOT turn a normal individual into a superman by chemical means. Such a result is impossible, and ridiculous on the face of it.”

I want to take this time to thank you, Pete Sisco, for developing and selflessly marketing THE most effective training system PFT/SCT in history. Its totally changed my life & what I know about productive bodybuilding.

 

Thanks for the kind words, Mark. And for empirically demonstrating that recovery can sometimes be measured in months, rather than days. These are the things that can be discovered if we simply use arithmetic to measure our workouts instead of using ‘feel,’ ‘instinct,’ or blindly accepting universal advice, like training Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for the rest of our lives. Every science depends on accurate measurements.

You can try our most effective ever Power Factor workout by getting this inexpensive e-booklet.

If you want my help analyzing your data and calculating your optimum new goals and personal recovery intervals, become a member of the Engineered Strength Gym. (Membership fills up quickly. If it’s closed when you read this you can send me an e-mail and get on the list for first notification.)

 

 

 

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491 Responses to 35 lbs of Muscle and Six Months of Rest Between Workouts?

  1. Mark Winchester at #

    I would like to add to Pete’s superb article ^ the following:

    PFT/SCT proves beyond any doubt that the amount of weight required to
    > stimulate maximum growth is rediculous compared to whats used 99.99% of
    > the time, whats even more rediculous is the amount of volume of that ^
    > weight required for maximum growth & whats most rediculous of all is the
    > time progressively used to completely recover from the correct amount of
    > weight used at the correct amount of volume.
    >
    > Since conventional equipment is based on flawed training ideology its
    > best to train at home w/ just a Oly barbell, a thousand pounds of 100lb
    > plates, a bench & a safety rack. You’ll also need 1,000lb hooks, a
    > 1/2in+ pl’ing belt, wrist & knee wraps.
    >
    > Training at home by yourself on YOUR equipment is the only way to
    > go….trust me.

  2. Anonymous at #

    have you ever thought of switching those 2 exercises to SCT!! 5 sec holds!! Also do you do benchess on workout A and then Deadlift on workout B!! or both at once then wait 6 months then both again etc!! Great article!! I loved it.

  3. Mark Winchester at #

    I’d love to use SCT but I currently only own 700lbs of weights which wouldn’t be enough for the DL for very long I’d need at least 1,000lbs+ to progressively use SCT on the DL. This dilemma clearly demonstrates the flaw that conventional equipment is based on and the dire need for a mass produced machine capable of 2,500+lbs capacity.. The great Paul Anderson was doing nearly 2,000lb 2in. partials in the Squat at his strongest. Then when he went back to full-range foolishness his regular weight (800lbs) felt as light as a feather, to him at least.

    Since the body reacts to stimuli as a whole I do both exercises at the same time then wait 6+ months. Although I can see a day where training each lift individually will a necessity instead of an option. That would mean at that point I’d only be doing each exercise an unbelievable 1 rediculous time per year. Which frequency would only increase as increased output requires increased recovery time.

    The public naturally always cite pro bb’ers as example when these guys are genetic freaks & would be large & muscular w/out lifting much & able to frequently repeat it. Interestingly enough though I’d estimate most pro bb’ers gain very little if any muscle once they’re at the top level of competition. Despite idiot shit like insane drug usage & kidney destructive high protein low carb diets.

  4. charlie at #

    Is the picture of the man on the beach in red shirt with his back to us Mark Winchester showing his 35 lb lean muscle gain?

  5. Mark Winchester at #

    It is. I can provide factual proof of my gains. As well as a certified lab test proving my normal range testosterone level. I’ve never claimed to be 8% bodyfat either. My bf is dropping daily. Once I’m at a “ripped” level pics will be submitted to prove that as well as pics of me over 100lbs lighter when I was 16yrs old. When your 5’8″ & 245lbs you ain’t gonna look like a svelte aesthetic bodybuilder. Your going to look like a fire hydrant. If it were up to me I’d be 5’10” w/ a tiny waist & 19in arms but I have 16.5in arms & a 48″ butt. Not my choice. I’m sure Tom Platz or Tommi Thorvildsen feel the same way.

  6. Mark Winchester at #

    As far as my maximum size which is a logical question IMO I suspect by the time I’m using at or near 1,000lbs for 40+ 2in. reps in the DL and 700+lbs in the BP I should be at least 30lbs heavier which at present bf level would be 275lbs+. Hopefully I will have reduced my bf level by at least 30lbs by then as being 5’8″ & near 300lbs seems like torture to me.

  7. Mark Winchester at #

    Tom Platz is the blonde dude standing next to mustached Mike Mentzer on the right of the pic.

    > http://strength-exchange.goldsgym.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/MilkEggProtein-crop.jpg

    Does he look like he has an X shape? Hell no he doesn’t! He looks like some chubby little dude who just made some restaurant deeply it’s “All You Can Eat” buffet.

  8. Mark Winchester at #

    But this damn sure don’t look fat to me, nor anyone else w/ the slightest bit of common sense!

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oeiQrvOrhzc/VGaGuZDQ6xI/AAAAAAAAHQU/YVKIaUR8Q20/s1600/vlcsnap-2014-09-18-17h13m02s75.jpg

    Remember any dude bigger than you is automatically fat. Regardless of his bodyfat level, its irrelevant. Rolls Eyes.

  9. Mark Winchester at #

    Unfortunately my genes are much more like Tommi “Glutezilla” Thorvildsen. Again if it were up to me I’d have an aesthetically pleasing greek god physique…but I simply don’t not ever will regardless of how lean I am. Living in reality is so much more realistic than some Ah-nuld fantasy world. All I or any can do is train as effectively as possible, hence PFT/SCT, don’t screw your body w/ fool’s gold steroids, or make some supplement company wealthy wasting your $$ on they’re worthless crap and hope for the best. So many good men & a few women have died pursuing a idiotic, senseless goal of competitive bb’ing. Who gives a shit? No one thats who!

    http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=574078.0;attach=620016;image

  10. Nick at #

    Hi Mark,

    Thanks for telling your story. Out of curiosity, did you ever consider doing curls for your biceps, considering there’s no flexing in the elbow joint when doing the deadlift?

  11. Mark Winchester at #

    Nick,
    The biceps (mine especially) are such a tiny muscle group I don’t believe they usually don’t need much direct training. In fact I’m convinced the reason why most guys don’t have larger biceps is usually due to directly training them which in most cases only leads to over-training thereby preventing any hypertrophic potential they do have.

    The bottom line is IMO the Healthlift, or partial-range Deadlift, IF done intensely enough (via PFT/SCT) will provide all the total body growth stimulation anyone, regardless of their individual genetic makeup, needs to develop themselves to their maximum potential. Any additional exercises are as Pavel Tsatsouline says nothing but a cherry on on ice cream sundae. I include the BP as it probably does stimulate a small amount of additional general overall upper body growth.

    The (2) biggest factors which prevent the vast majority of trainees from reaching their maximum muscular size & strength are lack of intensity & overtraining, i.e., lack of rest. Its not bullshit protein intake, or hormone level, or any other extraneous factors. None.

    My advice to everyone is listen to what Pete advises (he knows a helluva lot more than I do) and live a normal life. There is no need for drugs or protein powder. The only “bodybuilding” supplement I use or will ever use is creatine hcl which sells at wal-mart for $14/jar and will last anyone at least 2 freakin’ months. Anything else & your basically flushing your $$ down the toilet.

  12. Nick at #

    Interesting point Mark. I would sure like to hear Pete Sisco’s view on the deadlift being the end all exercise.
    Also, how do you take your creatine? Only in conjunction with workouts, or on a more regular basis?

  13. Mark Winchester at #

    Pete,
    Disagrees w/ me on my HL opinion. The one & only way to fully activate any muscle is in it’s fully contracted position. In the completed position of the HL the trainee is activating every major muscle group in the human body. There are plenty of top level PL’ers who’ve never done a curl in their life who have huge biceps. Thats because they have a high # of fast-twitch type II-A fibers in their biceps. There are plenty of competitve pro bb’ers who’ve trained so hard they ripped the bicep tendon off the humerous bone (Tom Platz for example). Despite all this intensity & effort he never had nor ever will much of a bicep. Except when he injected a certain chemical into it just before posing which made it swell up like it had been hit w/ a baseball bat.

    Those PL’ers I mentioned ^ also have huge lats despite doing any rowing exercises and traps w/ out having done any shrugs. They also have huge calves despite doing a single calf raise. 1982 Chris Dickerson was know for his huge calves. He claimed to train them 2 hours every F’in day. His identical twin brother had even larger calves but he never lifted a weight in his life. Get my point?

  14. William at #

    Hi Mark and Pete,

    First, thank you for sharing this and showing the true benefits and keys Intensity and Recovery play in training.

    Looking forward to hearing more on your progress Mark, and hope you’ll share your journey both on getting to where you are now, and your the future.

    Thanks for the Inspiration !!

  15. There are a lot of people who want to find the “one best exercise.” I’ve heard hundreds of people say all you need is squats. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to find the single best exercise for you. But a lot of people like doing a specific exercise for each major muscle group – again – they just LIKE it. I’m not here to tell them to stop liking it.

    From my point of view, I want to discover what exercise generates the highest rate of muscle overload – measured mathematically – for any targeted muscle. If not using your biceps was the absolute best way to overload your biceps I’d be the first to say so, but certain barbell curls will load the biceps with work so demanding it can only be maintained for seconds. Your mileage may vary.

  16. Mark Winchester at #

    I’m sure Chris Dickerson’s calf w/outs if analyzed w/ PFT technology showed (0) measurable output increases yet he blindly persisted in repititively pounding out w/out after w/out for no reason believing somehow magically his dedication was going to result in an increase in the size of his calves…which it didn’t. That’s the beauty of PFT/SCT if your effort is pointless that will be revealed. Repeatedly exposing a given muscle to the same level of output will never increase it’s size/strength. Even the great Ahnuld did this. Watch the movie HERCULES IN NEW YORK. Ahnuld despite all his Gold’s Gym w/outs & gallons of drug injections, lbs of Weedy’s protein pwder resulted in no visible muscular size increases I can see

  17. Mark Winchester at #

    cont.) and all that wasted effort could have been measured & prevented using PFT technology. But this is contigent upon the trainee having the common sense to realize increasing one’s size/strength is not some BS hocus pocus black magic ritual performed an east indian shaman. Its a measureable mathmatic biilogical process that isn’t dependent upon a bs trainer of chumps or drug useage or protein quality intake.

  18. Nick at #

    Pete,

    What Mark is talking about seems to be in line with the systemic effect of your CNS – workout.
    Where do you stand on that workout today in the light of your recent studies?

  19. Well, the CNS Workout was designed to generate the highest overload per minute from as many muscle groups as possible. It even used hybrid exercises like a deadlift, combined with a shrug, combined with a toe raise. So it’s a bear.

    It could be that some people’s metabolism spread the metabolic effects (increased testosterone, growth hormone, etc) throughout the body more or less evenly so that, say, biceps respond even though they were not specifically worked. But whether that method build biceps better than standing barbell curls is something I’ve never studies

    At the same time, we’ve probably all see individuals with one area of their body very well developed, but with some other area weak and underdeveloped. This is why I’m reluctant to say, there is one best exercise for everyone and it will develop every part of their body fully and equally. I’ve just seen way too much variability between individuals – and that always takes me back to collecting individual data from each person and engineering from there. Hence,the Engineered Strength Gym.

  20. William at #

    Hello Pete,

    With your current insight from recent studies, how would you balance those desiring to use your recent Mass Gain Studies,the SCT workout, while also including your CNS workout some as well?

    By the way, enjoying Amazing progress from your Mass Gain studies parts 1 & 2.

    Truly appreciate all your research that we may benefit from it.

    Best Regards,

    William

  21. Mark Winchester at #

    To clarify what the HL in the majority of cases doesn’t develop direct exercise won’t either IMO. The HL simply provides the most overload possible to the major muscle groups. The Lego method stacking numerous smaller direct exercises will never equal what is possible w/ one huge exercise, especially when done as instructed in Pete’s CNS routine. Its IMO the perfect program.

  22. Donnie Hunt at #

    This on going conversation kinda goes along with some of my current thinking. Whenever I get back to the gym I can put it
    to practice. I really like the feel of using multiple muscle groups in a given exercise vs. attempting isolation these days……to practice.This on going c

  23. Donnie Hunt at #

    Doing a static effort or a short range dynamic movement. Focusing on contracting all the muscles in movements like leg presses, pulldowns, chest presses, rows…..I prefer exercises where it’s not awkward or injury risking getting in and out of position. I like Mark’s thoughts here on training at home.

  24. Mark Winchester at #

    People often use certain pro bb’ers as examples of certain muscle group’s benefit for doing certain exercises, e.g., Scott Curl, Ahnuld press, etc.. When in reality these individual’s use of these specific exercises have little or nothing to do w/ them having an specific outstanding bodypart. Larry Scott’s impressive biceps or Ahnuld’s horseshoe triceps are a result of good genes NOT doing a specific isolation exercise for that specific bodypart. Joel Stubbs has/had one of the most impressive backs in recent memory yet he did nothing special to get his freakish back, in fact he did even use poundages anywhere near what you would think someone w/ huge lats would use. Tom Platz did the same exercises as everyone else for his legs, in fact Casey Viator trained much heavier than Platz yet Platz’s legs were some of the best in history.

  25. William at #

    Agree Mark. Have noticed it both feels more natural to use a movement / exercise that uses multiple muscles contracting maximally rather than just isolation movements. Also feel Mark is spot-on with people trying to stack exercises like LEGO will not equal the overall effect like Pete’s CNS workout.

    Thank you Mark for sharing your thoughts, along with others here.

    Best Regards,

    William

  26. Mark Winchester at #

    Here’s an excellent example of what I’m talking about. 148lb boxer Joel Stubbs (no relation to the bb’er) has incredibly peaked biceps. Yet he’s never done a real hard set of curls EVER. I already know there is nothing I can do that will make my pathetic bicep come close to remotely appearing like Stubbs”,

    http://www.badculture.net/wp-content/uploads/DSC_0785-1024×680.jpg

  27. Brian at #

    Hi Mark, first congrats on your results on getting super strong. Even with a small range, those are impressive lifts. I am a big believer of Pete’s methods, been following him for years, and glad he has continued to look at training frequencies. We all benefit. I am a little skipetic of your stats, however. You claim to have gone from 213 to 245. During the above interview, you provide no actual response to Pete’s questions, even answering “I have no idea” to one of them. Perhaps you were not actually monitoring those stats (other than scale gains), albeit making awesome strength gains (those are absolutely measurable). You state you are also 47. Without the use of performance enhancing drugs, at our age making a gain of 30-35lbs of “lean” muscle in a year or so is very unlikely. You would have to be a genetic freak. You claim to be around 18% body fat, which is quite good and actually quite lean, but your pic is from behind and you are clothed. Regardless of whether or not your gains were muscle or some muscle and bodyfat (which is probably the case), I still think the method is terrific and that too many folks are WAY overtrained. Keep up the good work, and good luck with your ongoing goals!

  28. Mark Winchester at #

    Brian,
    I go by the scale & the mirror. I have a bicep vein that keeps becoming more & more prominent & a mid-section that keeps getting harder & harder so my bodyfat is dropping. Your comment re: steroids is wrong. I’ve used just about every major steroid every pro uses (deca, dbol, tren, winny, EQ, testosterone ethanthate, sustanon, masteron, primobolan, etc.) & got (0) but problems. In short, steroids do not work. Muscle growth is an electrical issue NOT a hormonal one. The heavier the weight the stronger the current (e.g., 220volts is alot strong than 11volts). Anabolic signalling which sets the hypertrophy process into motion is the same way.

    I just weighed myself yesterday & am now 255lbs. As I said last October I was 215lbs. These are both verifiable as both were done in physician’s offices. I figure once I’m using 750lbs for 35+ reps in HL I should be at least another 25lbs heavier which would obviously be around 280lbs which is alot for 5’8″. Hopefully I’ll never be THAT heavy I’d much rather drop to <10% bf. I don't eat alot. I wear a XXL shirt snug now that I've had in my closet for 2yrs that used to hang on me. Now it fits great!

    I'm not a competitive bb'er wannabe although I'd like to do it once just to prove a point. Once I'm using like I said 750lbs I plan on naturally dieting as I don't believe in aerobic exercise as hard as I can & then reevaluate if my bf is low enough for a local NPC amateur comp. Then I'll post pics from the comp so there be no misunderstanding the point I'm trying to make. That point is you don't need drugs, protein, low carb, stimulants, nothing just an iron will to succeed.

    Trust I realize how ridiculous my claims are & wouldn't believe them either if I were you.

  29. Mark Winchester at #

    Re: steroid’s effectiveness:

    Don’t take my word for it. If your like me you learn the hard, painful reality way. Get some & find out for yourself they don’t work. Dbol will blow you up w/ subcuntaneous edema which damn sure ain’t muscle. I will not supply any source information as I”m sure the ones I used are either in prison, out of the biz or dead. I believed the steroids are “growth drugs” BS & they damn near killed me w/ 13 blood clots in my right calf popiteal vein & 3 in my right groin artery (I have the radiologist’s report to prove it).

    Casey Viator was his best 100% natural working for Arthur Jones. In fact his 1971 youngest Mr America record is STILL unbeaten despite all the F’up kiddies juicin’ they’re brains out. Casey tried to squeeze some $$ out of Jones & Jones fired him. He then went to So Cal & began heavily using steroids. He never despite his one in a few million genes AND steroids won another competition. What does that tell you about steroids?

  30. Mark Winchester at #

    At my age? Here’s Don Youngblood at age 54. He didn’t even start seriously bodybuilding until age 34. Albert Beckles competed till age 60. Satchel Paige pitched in the MLB till age 62.

    http://www.bodybuilding-pics.com/99/images/Don_Youngblood%20(30).jpg

  31. Mark Winchester at #

    This link works > http://static1.sfd.pl/1/images2005/20050613124737.jpg

  32. Nick at #

    Mark,

    Mr Youngblood apparently died at age 51. Not surprisingly as his physique doesn’t strike me as natural at any age, and certainly not at middle age.
    Is it at all possible to compete as an IFBB pro bodybuilder without a heavy drug regimen?
    How do you think this man is an example for us?

  33. Don was born in 1951 and died in 2004. Drugs have (0) nothing to do w/ muscular size but a lot to do w/ bodyfat level or IOW rate of thermogenisis. My point is a man’s potential for impressive muscular size is not limited by his age or his testosterone level, provided its in a normal range. Its solely dependent on his will to train effectively & PFT/SCT is the most effective way to train. Don screwed his health & ultimately ended his life due to using insulin which gave him type 2 diabetes & caused him to suffer a fatal heart attack. It did not give him his incredible size, his genes did that. Don didn’t let his age to stop him & neither should anyone else. It goddam sure ain’t slowin’ me down one bit. By age 50 I plan on being the largest & strongest I’ve ever been. 100% naturally. No drugs, no protein, no nothing but a normal life/diet & 750mg of creatine hcl/daily mixed w/ PFT/SCT and a helluva lotta rest between w/outs. Its not complicated only very, very damn hard & heavy.

  34. Anthony at #

    So can you rest too long! what if Im recovered in 2 months but I wait 5 months between workouts? Is it better to have that extra wait? I do workout A and workout B modified to only 2 exercises per workout. Im thinking of switching to a workout like yours mark but im concerned if I only workout 3-5 times a year its not enough. I dont have a very active job where im on my feet all day so maybe i need more workouts. I dont want to gain un-necessary fat working out so little. Thats my dilemma of taking more rest even though i know by now I need that.

    Im just concerned at the lack of physical activity how will i stay at an average bodyfat level or even cut if I want to working out that little? We still need a good amount of food to maintain muscle. Most people say just cut the pastas, rice and potatoes and eat just meat and veggies and that will do it! All the new “studies” and recent books seem to say that but who knows if its really all about carbs. Many have done it on high carbs for year and they weren’t genetic freaks for maintain muscle or cutting with carbs.

  35. If you can I haven’t experienced it. Casey Viator once went 2yrs w/out lifting & lost (0)strength/size. This makes me wonder just what “recovery” truly is. I’m convinced its a cellular thing. Once the cell’s energy reserves have been replenished the muscle is healed. Dr John Bosely Zeigler (dbol’s daddy) theorized potassium ions returning to they’re previous levels + additional amount added through supercompesation initiated by training. Similair to a suntan or a callous. No one knows for sure. All I know currently 5 months is not enough. I won’t lift again till March if not April. By resting that much I know I’ll increase my PF by 12.5%+ & 20%+ PI. All I do know is recovery ain’t got a damn thing to do w/ testosterone level or protein intake or anything that can be bottled & sold.

  36. Mark Winchester at #

    Anthony,
    My diet consists of probably 80% low glycemic index complex carbs. Bodyfat burns in the flame of carbs. Your brain must have glucose to function properly & low carb lowers blood blood glucose. All low carb diets do is quickly lower the body’s blood water concentration which explains the initial quick weight loss on that type diet.
    The “inactivity” is what the body requires to recover from intense training like PFT/SCT. I’m not a dietitian but everyone knows to only take in what calories your require. W/out knowing your age I couldn’t give anymore unprofessional advice.

  37. William at #

    Anthony – in regards to nutrition, have used what is covered in Chapter 11 A Nutrition Seminar in Power Factor Training by Pete Sisco and John Little. Mark’s post is a great example of keeping it basic while fitting your age, body, etc.

    Hope Mark will share more on his thoughts regarding a post workout meal along with his journey using PFT – SCT.

  38. Mark Winchester at #

    I don’t have a “post w/out meal”. Recovery from a w/out for me personally doesn’t even start for a couple of weeks after I lift.The public has been brainwashed & dumbed down into believing what you eat is somehow going to affect the degree of results you receive from lifting when in reality thats solely determined primarily by the intensity of your output. The are dudes doing life in prison that eat bologna samiches & drink kool-aid everyday that are 100% natural 5’9″, 250lbs ripped to the bone. After Casey Viator won the Mr America contest at 19yrs old Weider sent him a contract which said if he would give Weider unlimited use of his pic & signature Weider would give him $1,000 (alot in 1971). Jones gave Casey the $1,000 & Casey threw the contract in the trash can. If he had signed it there would have been hundreds of BS ads giving credit for Casey’s winning bb’ing contests to the use of Weider’s crap supplements which Casey NEVER used.

  39. Mark Winchester at #

    Recovery from a lifting IMO is no different than the healing of a broken bone. The healing (recovery) takes place over a loooooong period of time in many repetitive cycles of the same process over & over & over until the signal sent to the CNS telling it the organism (you) must get stronger (adapt) or it will die. Thats all IMO bb’ing. An exploitation of the human environmental adaptive response. Again no different than getting a tan or a callous on your hand.

  40. Anonymous at #

    Thanks for the replies. Very helpful. Here’s one thing I wanted to point out. I was doing every 3 months with a full body SCT workout. Some lifts didn’t recover so I finally split into workout a and b. When I skipped body parts and later training them they were stronger with the extra rest. Even though I trained workout a and systemically worked the whole body it seems giving the specific muscle groups more break regardless of the systemic effect helped them get stronger by the time I cam back again to workout A. So I mean what do you think is happening here. Sure there is a systemic effect but what about specific muscle recovery.

  41. William at #

    Appreciate the candid truthful response there Mark. It is true, so many bbers are duped into thinking they need this or that miracle supplement when in reality, as you said, an intense enough training stimulus followed by a looooong recovery.

    Thanks for the feedback Mark.

  42. We’re seeing this in the Frequency Study. We can push people through at a higher frequency without waiting for 6 out of 6 exercises to improve. So they might make strength progress on 3 exercises but we keep the recovery the same. At the end of 10 workouts they show mass gains.

    Of course, the safe and efficient thing to do is wait until full recovery and 6 of 6 exercises improve. But it’s interesting to see evidence that even when you don’t wait for all 6 muscle groups to recover, it is possible to see improvement in some others.

    But I want to stress two things: 1) None of this works without measuring load, time and intensity in an exact way. 2) It’s very easy to tip over the line to overtraining and make zero progress whatsoever, and even move backwards.

  43. jacin at #

    Mark, your only execises are bench press, and deadlift?,
    How you train the legs?

  44. Mark Winchester at #

    Jacin,
    The Deadlift provides all the leg stimulus you need. In the completed position of both the squat & the leg press there is (0) resistance borne by your legs. In the squat your lumbar spine bears all the weight causing massive vertebrael in the lumbar area.

  45. William at #

    Hi Pete, Appreciate your input and reminders “…1) None of this works without measuring load, time and intensity in an exact way. 2) It’s very easy to tip over the line to overtraining and make zero progress whatsoever, and even move backwards”

    Looking forward to hearing the results of this new Frequency Study.

  46. Mark Winchester at #

    One thing that must be pointed out re: self analysis of state of recovery following a training session. It, IMO, is absolutely impossible to judge by feel, soreness, energy level, etc., to judge whether you are recovered. I’ve waited four (4) months before & felt ready to lift then when I trained I failed to record a significantly higher level of output than my previous w/out. The deficit make by training is far, far greater than currently recognized by 99+% of those who consider themselves knowledgeable on such matters. This explains the industry standard of a 10lb lbm gain per year outstanding.

  47. I’ve heard that some old-time strongmen used their grip strength to measure their recovery. If true, that would be useful because a test would not deplete much energy. I’d like to run a study on that one day.

  48. Nick at #

    That’s a great idea! Especially since modern technology should make it very easy and affordable to get hold (!) of a competent meter device.
    As a matter of fact I’ll start testing it on my next workout.

  49. The way I’ll do it is to get people to use their bathroom scale. If you squeeze a scale (digital or analog) with both hands you should see the peak reading. That would be the Pass/Fail test.

  50. Mark Winchester at #

    Not to be a jerk or disrespectful but that sounds straight outta the Weider “I know something less than nothing” BS book of worthless training tips. A properly performed training sessio get n MUST be viewed no different than a orthopedic surgical procedure. A novice can away w/ a few frequent w/outs but w/in no more than 3-5 w/outs the subject should be using poundages that require at least a month or so to completely recover from. Bear in mind the body doesn’t operate on a weekly, monthly or yeary clock, only a 24hr one. The recovery process is the same process repeated many times until the deficit filled & supercompensated for. This supercompensation results in varied forms in dfferent individuals. Some get primarily stronger, some larger (e.g., ME), w/ most receiving varying amounts of both responses. Old-Time strongmen were usually dumb as a rock & got where they were sheerly by accident. No different than today’s pro bb’ers.

  51. Mark, your comment seems out of context. Or else you’re just being dismissive of testing a hypothesis.

    If recovery is systemic, then a pass/fail test for full recovery might be possible with a simple exercise like grip strength. You happen to test your recovery with a full deadlift – fail – then need even more time to recover from that massive failed effort. It might be possible to find as less taxing test.

    That’s what experimentation is for.

  52. Mark Winchester at #

    Pete,
    My point is complete recovery takes far, far longer than 99.999% of people could begin to understand. I’ve learned through a decade+ of stagnation that, as my Arthur Jones article explains, the amount of training to stimulate maximum muscular size/strength increases is so miniscule the same ^ 99.999% of people never believe it and as a result stagnate like I did the majority of they’re lives rationalizing that they’ve reached their genetic limit when there probably has never been a single person EVER whose reached his absolute peak size/strength. I can see less than 2:00 total training time requiring 12-16 months to totally recover from. < That is so far past ridiculous its laughable.

  53. Mark Winchester at #

    To put it another way the time required to completely recover from a w/out is inversely proportionate to the intensity that stimulated it. A PFT/SCT set (20-30 reps) of 1,000lb DL’s would take almost anyone regardless of recovery ability at least 3-5 months to recuperate from to the point they could significantly increase their output in their next w/out.

  54. charlie at #

    In response to Mark Winchester’s post about Casey Viator not taking Joe Weider’s contract: The rest of the story is that training under Jones, Casey lost the NABBA Universe to Dave Johns, (and you never heard Jones bragging about this second place finish). Casey eventually moved to Weiderland (So Calif.) and achieved what I consider the best condition of his life by placing 3rd in the Mr. Olympia.

  55. Mark Winchester at #

    Casey was at his best when he won the Mr America at 19yrs old. Much better than his Mr Olympia showing.

    http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/fbbuploads/med_1173919466-CVdec1970.jpg

  56. William at #

    Pete – was wondering your thoughts on doing your Mass Gain Study 30 second PFT / SCT workout with only 2 or 3 exercises instead of full 6.

  57. Hi William. I’m giving serious thought to running a quick study with two of the exercises. Mark W. has had great success with just the deadlift and bench press and I’m wondering if that would be reproducible with a majority of people. Plus, it might give me an opportunity to test the grip strength hypothesis of recovery testing. Of course, the real measure of recovery is whether intensity – measured mathematically – increased or not. But if the grip power mirrors the actual lifting results we might discover something very useful.

  58. Mark Winchester at #

    Pete,
    An even more dramatic, jaw-dropping study would be a SCT study using only the DL w/ holds of no more than 10 seconds. I’ve experienced 2+in. chest increases w/ no (0) bench pressing. As Strossen points out in SUPER SQUATS using only the squat trainees obtained huge growth throught the upper body despite no direct exercises. Anyone who can hold (w/ 1,000lb hooks) as “little” as 700lbs for a couple of 10sec sets will have no shortage of muscular mass anywhere in his upper body despite no direct upper body exercises. 700lbs is going to IMO send a much stronger signal to the CNS than BP’ing 350lbs ever will.

  59. That would be good too. But right now the high-water mark for gains is the Power Factor 30-second group doing the six mass gain exercises. If we could even approach those gains with two exercises it would be big news with apples to apples data. If we exceeded those gains it would be even better.

    But without the data it’s all just educated speculation.

  60. William at #

    Pete – Appreciate your experienced feedback and continue to follow your Mass Gain Study. Look forward to when you do the two exercise study (including the grip strength test for recovery gauge.

  61. Mark Winchester at #

    Pete,
    I bet I could gain at least 10lbs of lean body mass PER W/OUT for (3) successive w/outs using only the DL applying the superiority of SCT. I’m sure my chest would show an increase of at least 3inches. Including the BP might add a little size…its a very subjective issue depending on the trainee & his individual genes.

    The use of a thick pl’ing belt, 1,000lb hooks, & knee wraps are MANDATORY w/ the DL. Also maintaining a strong arch in the lower back is extremely important as well as tilting the head all the way back keeping your eyes focused on the ceiling. Remember to NOT use your low back to do the lifting. Use your butt & legs keeping your tightly wrapped knees slightly unlocked. Following up w/ the shrug is a good idea IF your traps are not already exhausted. Mine always are so trying to shrug for me is pointless.

  62. charlie at #

    Mark, thanks for the link:
    http://www.davedraper.com/fusionbb/fbbuploads/med_1173919466-CVdec1970.jpg
    Casey Viator looks awesome in this photo, however, it would be good to see a direct comparison between this photo and his condition when he got 3rd in the Olympia.
    I will admit that after Casey moved to Wiederland, in some of the studio photos in Wieder’s magazine, Casey didn’t look so big, he lost size.

  63. charlie at #

    Pete,

    I just listened to your recording again where you cite the Goldberg study, where as long as the stimulus is present, and adequate recovery time, in the absence of growth hormone, on a starvation diet, etc. muscle growth will take place, etc.

    Then if this is true, I should have no problem with muscle growth while eating the raw vegan fruitarian diet I’ve been on for the past 13 years, right?
    My diet consists of fruits, greens, and nuts, all in their raw uncooked state. So far, I have not seen a loss in muscle mass and am quite muscular for my age (58). (I can send a photo if you wish. I’d say I’m more muscular on this diet than 99% of the men my age on any diet).

  64. charlie at #

    Mark,

    I’m interested in your results and what you have to say, but to tell you the truth, I just don’t believe it (yet). Why? Because the photo of you on the beach in clothes with your back to the camera is simply unimpressive.
    Look, the more outrageous your story is, the greater lengths you will have to go to to prove it to me. I’d really like to believe what you say, but I really need some convincing evidence and photos.
    Thanks

  65. Mark Winchester at #

    Charlie,
    I never claimed to have an aesthetic impressive physique. I’ve simply stated facts. Those facts are in the past year I’ve gained over 35lbs of pure muscle.

    Here are some of my measurements:

    Neck – 18.5
    Chest – 50.5
    Waist – 35
    Butt – 50
    Legs – 31
    Arms – 16.75
    Calves – 19

    5’8″ – 255lbs

    Bodyfat – approx. <18%

    I'd forget about trying to emulate Casey Viator or any pro bb'er. These guys would look impressive regardless how they trained. There is absolutely nothing useful you can learn from any of them. They usually have no other redeeming qualities & as such are willing to drastically shorten their lives for a breif few moments of glory. Sheer stupidity in it's purest form. Casey WAS a great example when Jones could watch everything he did & protect him from his own ignorance. He tried to make a comeback in the Masters Mr Olympia & placed dead last nowhere near his 1971 condition.

  66. Mark Winchester at #

    Charlie,
    That ^ pic of me was taken 3yrs ago BEFORE I put on the large amount of muscle over the past year. As I stated earlier I plan on taking some pics once I’m much leaner & larger then there will be no mistaking the incredible transformation donw w/out drugs, protein, low-carb, or any BS supplement (not even creatine!). Just a 50yr old man eating a normal dietm living a normal life lifting VERY heavy weights for a couple of inches for a couple of minutes a couple of times a year. That’s it.

  67. Plenty of people gain all the muscle they want on vegan diets. Just watch your PF or SC numbers and keep them increasing. Your body will have no option but to grow new muscle.

  68. charlie at #

    Thanks Mark for the clarification that the pic was taken before. I assumed it was taken after.
    I’m looking forward to your pics in a leaner condition. I want to clarify that impressive to me does not necessarily mean looking like Casey because I know that few people can look like him so I don’t try to, but what is impressive is improvement – that’s why I’m real eager to see your pics.
    I’m also interested to know how you measured 35 lb of muscle gain.
    I don’t take any supplements either – learned a long time ago that they aren’t necessary and saved myself thousands. I even tried creatine and it did nothing for me. I’m 58.
    Thanks for your comments.

  69. Mark Winchester at #

    Roy Hillegan was a lifelong vegan & had an incredible physique.

    http://cbass.com/Hilligenn.htm

  70. William at #

    Hi Pete,

    Wondering if you would consider a study using 5 – 6 sets of 5 second SCT holds for exercises to study the possible strength and mass gains? Reason asking, noticed in your CNS workouts you have where the trainee does multiple SCT holds.

    Looking forward to more information from your new studies too !!

  71. We tested 3 sets. They had very good gains, but not as good as the 30-sec PF guys. However, nothing is ever going to beat Static Contraction for muscle gain vs. time invested. It’s astonishing how well 5 seconds of exercise builds new muscle.

  72. William at #

    Thanks Pete for your feedback. Yes, you’re right, remember having read the great progress of the 30 Seconds Power Factor group. It truly is amazing the efficient and effective gains for time invested with just 5 seconds of Static Contraction Training.

    Thank you for bringing us both !!

  73. Mark Winchester at #

    SCT clearly proves stimulating muscle size/strength increases is an electrical (CNS) issue & not what the world has brainwashed itself into believing. That is an artificial/exogenous elevation of testosterone level will increase physical performance which simply isn’t true. I laugh when I hear of the millions $$ wasted on PED testing. Steroids arw rhe biggest fool’s gold in history.

  74. William at #

    For those who seeking how little of training can trigger mass gains Pete has another great study he’s starting which can be linked to here –
    http://www.precisiontraining.com/studies/power-factor-minimalism-study/

    It will be a study on Power-Factor Minimalism training incorporating just two exercises, the deadlift and the bench press.

    Looking forward to seeing the results from this new study.

  75. Mark Winchester at #

    I feel safe in predicting the results of Pete’s Minimalism Study are gong to result in THE largest gains he’s ever seen…if the participants rest long enough between w/outs. Thiese rest periods at the least should be three months regardless of anyone’s output. This is also assuming the participants don’t begin the study in an already overtrained state. If someone hasn’t recorded any significant improvements in they’re recent w/outs they’d be advised to not expect any in the future until they’re bodies have totally recuperated from they’re previous efforts. If someone has been busting they’re ass lately to no avail chances are their overtrained & nothing but time will fix things. Not dumbass drugs, protein, creatine, NOTHING but sitting on their asses watching tv/reading/talking to 45+yr old smokin’ hot women (joke). Rome wasn’t built in a day & neither is an impressive physique or bar bending strength. Overtraing & lack of intensity are the two biggest reasons people try bb’ing & quickly give up in frustration.

  76. William at #

    Mark – Agree that the results of Pete’s Minimalism Study are going to surpass even his recent study. In fact, showing, people don’t need the snake oil selling protein or other garbage. Provided they are primed with adequate rest.

    Looking forward to this study.

  77. Mark Winchester Sr. at #

    For the record its been a little over (2) two months since I was spent approx (:40) forty seconds PFT lifting using (1) exercise & I still have palpable fatigue in my thighs/back/traps. From decades of experience I know this is telling me it will easily by 3-5 months before I’m able to lift again & register a significantly higher amount of muscular output.

    I can assure you if you asked any trainer, besides Pete Sisco or John Little, is ^ my analysis correct they’d laugh you out of gym & suggest yoga. The funny part is by the time I’m freakin’ 50yrs old I’ll be at least 25lbm pounds heavier & hopefully 35lbs less fat leaner. They nor a single of they’re clients won’t even come close to those ^ results.

  78. Mark Winchester Sr. at #

    I watched a recent Tom Platz video today where he goes on & on & on imparting his BS wisdom about “mitochondria” and “hyperplasia” & other total horseshit crap and how it all relates to bb’ing. Looking back I can’t believe I idolized this guy (along w/ few thousand other hopefuls). He, like Sergio Oliva’s arms, Ahnuld’s pecs, Franco’s back, etc., etc., got his amazing development from his genes NOT from his in-depth huge expanse of bb’ing knowledge. Nothing any of these men could tell me would benefit me one little bit.

    Arthur Jones was right bbing is wasted on bb’ers!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LjFvZtlATE

  79. William at #

    Just a reminder – For those who seeking how little of training can trigger mass gains Pete has another great study he’s starting which can be linked to here –
    http://www.precisiontraining.com/studies/power-factor-minimalism-study/

    It will be a study on Power-Factor Minimalism training incorporating just two exercises, the deadlift and the bench press.

    Looking forward to seeing the results from this new study.

  80. Mark Winchester Sr. at #

    I continue to be at a loss for words to explain to myself much less anyone else how its soon to be a forced realization that total recovery for me from 2-3 exercises done for no more than :45 seconds each will be at least 1yr. There simply aren’t words descriptive enough to describe the degree of ridiculousness of this upcoming fact.

  81. People vary in the recovery capacity just like they vary in everything else, from being 4 feet tall, to 7 feet tall, from light skin, to dark skin. So it’s not surprising that some people recover a lot slower or faster than others.

    It’s why Olympic athletes are almost 1 in a million. They have to be at the extreme end on so many metrics of performance and mental discipline.

  82. Mark Winchester at #

    And even Oly lifters could greatly increase their performance by reducing both the volume & frequency of their training…not to mention the ROM of their training exercises. If the US team could somehow pull their heads from their asses & exclusively train using SCT a few times per year they’d bring home a medal which hasn t happeed in decades. I won’t hold my breath though.

  83. This did happen with an Olympic swim team that won gold using SC training but wouldn’t go on the record about it. Also an NBA team that won the championship. And a #1 tennis player.

    That said, I’m sure they used SC as a tool, but not exclusively.

    But trainers have good reasons to keep their training secret – especially when it helps them win.

  84. Mark Winchester at #

    As crazy as it may sound I bet I average gain of at least 5lbs of lbm PER W/OUT during the next (3) w/outs. No other bb’ing system in the world can equal that. This has just as much to do w/ adequate rest as it does w/ the superiority of exclusive training using partials (PFT).

    Isn’t it coincidentally interesting how the last Olympic weightlifting Gold medalist (Paul Anderson) extensively trained using partials?

  85. Paul Anderson is a great example of a person using partial reps. That video shows things like how he dug a hole in the ground or used chains to hold weights – all so he could lift his absolute maximum in his strongest and safest range of motion.

  86. Adam at #

    Hi Pete and Mark, I must have viewed this thread a thousand times over the last few weeks, as I think its the pinnacle to advanced strength training. I started lifting in 1989 at age 15 following the swarz dogma till 18 burned out, then lowered the sets to 6 per body part on a split once a week in the Yates era burned out, quit training from 22 till 30 then started again at home confused and found my way to Mentzer, and was a client with John little in 2004. I continue to train once a week or month on the Mentzer HD consolidated routine implementing partial bench and deadlift. Routine is as follows, Squat full range warm up 40kg 10 reps, 90kg 2 reps, 140kg 1 rep, full range Chins plus 25kg 3-5 reps to positive failure, full range Dips plus 25kg to positive failure 3-5reps, Parallel Squats 200kg to positve failure 5-8reps. Parial bench 295kg 15reps, Partial Deadlifts 330kg 20reps. Whole workout takes less than 10 minutes total. I’ve tried spitting workout up, made no difference. I’ve purchased most of Pete’s products as well over the years. Now at age 41, I weigh 115kg with 18 inch arms bicep veins barely visble, I love food, Ive been stuck at this size for 7 years, but will now in light of reading this post thanks to you guys reduce frequency similar to Mark as time goes on see if progress continues. I’m not one to comment online about my training etc, but this time I thought what the hell, I do enjoy training and learning and having plenty of free time to do other more meaningful things in life as well. Thank you heaps guys

  87. Thanks, Adam. Look for a new post next week on this topic.

  88. Mark at #

    Adam,
    If you’ve been stuck at the same size/strength for seven years AND you’ve been training during those years – your overtrained. The one & only thing thats gonna fix it is time. Most likely six months+ of (0) exercise. After 10+ yrs or so it gets to be somewhat instinctive. When your overtrained & just the thought of yet another w/out gives you feelings (psycho & physio) your mind/body is trying to tell you its tired. After a lengthy layoff you’ll be itching to get the weights. Just train by the numbers. Whatever gives you the highest PF/PI is the direction to go. There is no cookie cutter fixed # of sets/reps for everyone. As I’ve posted before I’m extending my rest periods to 6+ months, probably 7 & maybe 8 & reducing my sets to (1) solitary, all-out, balls to the wall (crude e.g.) & I’m not gonna drop the bar until I drop. That will most likely be no more 40 reps done in less than :42 seconds. The thing is to not artificially follow a set plan to acheive a specific PF/PI. Let your body determine that. Arthur Jones’ extensive testing of identical twins clearly demonstrated some people can do unlimited # of reps w/ 80% of their 5 rep max weight. After a few minutes rest they could repeat the same #’s day after day. These people were endurance athletes who could run for miles w/out muscular exhaustion. Other people (ME) couldn’t do 10 reps w/ 80% of their 5 rep max weight. Then it took some of them at least a month+ before they could return & repeat the same #’s, let alone show any improvement at all. These people were meant to be bodybuilders (whatever that exactly is). If they rest sufficiently they’d show dramatic size/strength increases whereas the endurance athletes show little increases. Just train by the #’s. They are your guide. Not your conscious mind. I’m not by any means saying the endurance athletes should forget about increasing their PF & the bodybuilders should forget about their PI, each group has something gain from both. Its just that by focusing on their respective unit of measurement of emphasis these people will show increases in their corresponding unit of measurement by default. Pete’s early example of a 2-cycle motor’s “powerband” is a perfect analogy. I could train lighter for alot more reps/sets but I would gain anywhere near what I can focusing on my personal best range. I hope my hard, very hard earned experience is of assistance.

  89. Mark at #

    Another excellent example is Fred Hatfield, he held the world record squat w/ 1,000lbs. He insisted he had the strongest legs in the world & went to Arthur Jones Nautilus installation to prove it. After (2) repeated tests it was clearly demonstrated he actually had comparatively weak quads which had very high endurance. Here’s the funny story >

    http://www.arthurjonesexercise.com/First_Half/33.PDF

  90. Adam at #

    Thanks Mark and Pete your comments are awesome. It amazes me how Paul Anderson figured it out way back then. In 1956 he traveled with in 200kms from where I live, 18 years before I was born to bring home the gold. He was sick at that time, high temps and ear infections ect ? Over trained ?

  91. Adam at #

    The genius of Paul Anderson, natural talent combined with intelligence. Most have one or the other, not both.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-_LZB8o8E

  92. Mark Winchester at #

    Here’s a great source of Paul Anderson pics exemplifying what (1) VERY heavy exercise does for muscular size. It takes massive weights to build thickness like 5’9, 360lbs. & partials are the only to use massive weights.

    http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/bios/p/paul-anderson/

  93. Mark at #

    To keep those interested up to date its now been almost four (4) months of rest since I lifted for less than two (2:00) total training time & I am nowhere near ready to lift again & expect a significant degree of output increase. I’m hoping for March 1 but it may be May 1 before I’m totally recovered. If it indeed does turn out to be May I’m sure I’ll record at least a 18+% increase & the resultant 7-10lb lbm muscle gain stimulated from that increase.

    This ^ is only possible w/ PFT/SCT. No other system recognizes the fact recovery is far from a fixed predictable schedule.

  94. Anonymous at #

    how do you know if its march or may to fully recover. what are you going by. and why might you wakt till may

  95. Mark at #

    What tells me if I’m ready to train again is decades of hard-earned experience. I could lift as early as January but I already know that would be waaaay too soon. Arthur Jones himself said toward the end of his interest in bb’ing “We are now starting see just how demanding this stuff is, re: recovery we may have missed the broad side of the barn”.

    As I said earlier by age freakin’ 50 if I am 235lbs @ or below 10% bodyfat THAT will prove the superiority of extremely infrequent abbreviated training.

  96. Mark at #

    What tells me if I’m ready to train again is decades of hard-earned experience. I could lift as early as January but I already know that would be waaaay too soon. Arthur Jones himself said toward the end of his interest in bb’ing “We are now starting see just how demanding this stuff is, re: recovery we may have missed the broad side of the barn”.

    As I said earlier by age freakin’ 50 if I am 235lbs @ or below 10% bodyfat THAT will prove the superiority of extremely infrequent abbreviated training.

    http://www.trulyhuge.com/Real-Value-of-Exercise.html

    http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Unpublished/PermitGrowth.pdf

    http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Other/evidence.pdf

    http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Bulletin1/36.PDF

    http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Ironman/Facts.PDF

    http://arthurjonesexercise.com/MuscleTraining/FourHundredHours.pdf

    http://arthurjonesexercise.com/Future_Exercise/8.PDF

  97. A. Louis at #

    To me it seems you cant rest long enough. Even if I was fully recovered a month ago, if i wait an extra month it only helps and ensures that the muscle grew.

    Ive been doing this since about 2010. as of two years ago I switched to SCT

    I only train the Bench press hold and an abbreviated seated row which basically acts as a deadlift.

    Im at once every 5 months and 26 years old. Thanks Pete for everything.

  98. charlie at #

    Response to A. Louis – you’re at 5 months now? What kind of muscle gains have you made doing this type of workouts?
    Listen guys, until someone posts some pictures showing some impressive muscle, I just don’t believe any of it. So far all I’ve heard is talk about some unproven gains, let me see the muscle!

  99. Mark at #

    Charlie,
    You might find what you looking for here: http://www.4musclemen.com/

    Pete Sisco, nor I, anyone else who posts on Pete’s blog or PFT/SCT training theory itself is not about look at my pretty body. Its about scientific, rational, drug-free training principles. Sure I like being large & muscular but I damn sure don’t do to ruin my health to shave the hair off my entire body, wear a G-string & flex onstage. The only I shave is my face & not very often.

    Pete Sisco sure doesn’t look remotely like a bodybuilder but he is by far the closest living person to Arthur Jones & in the ROM & frequency dept. he’s waaay ahead.

    fyi – I have not visited the above link nor will I ever. ^ Those dudes have a serious mental illness, both the posers & viewers IMO.

  100. charlie at #

    Mark,

    I thought this forum was for an intelligent discussion on muscle building, not about insulting me about going to some gay nude website (the link you provided).

    You’re making the assumption that I’m looking to ruin my health in order to look hugely muscular. I’m not. What I’m looking for is to see if your system of working out here produces a healthy muscular body. I’m interested in health and longevity and a pleasing looking body. I’m very happy with the results I’m achieving by working out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and I think I have a more muscular looking physique than any of you guys working out every 6 months (and I’d be happy to post my recent photo – at age 58 -and see yours too). So why would I choose to spend money on the ESG or change my regimen and start working out every 6 months if I don’t see any change in my appearance?
    If Pete Sisco doesn’t look remotely like a bodybuilder then why in the world would anyone want to follow his advice? I WANT to look remotely like a bodybuilder! I don’t want to look fat and tell people how much weight I can lift! I want to look good in a swim suit!
    As for Arthur Jones, he was nothing more than a brash exercise equipment SALESMAN who made millions and did not produce the widespread results that he implied he could do because there never was a new generation of bodybuilders that came along using his HIT methods. My opinion is that Arthur Jones is often spoken of as if he knew it all – and so far my research is showing that he clearly DID NOT know all there is to know about building muscle.
    I’m sure I speak for many others that would love to see your pictures and not just read your words Mark. Please take off your shirt right now and send us a quick pic, hairy chest and all, we don’t care – I just want to see if you are a 460 lb blob, or a 115 lb pencil neck or some middle age guy with a pot belly who just lifts some heavy weights now and then – you see without picture, you or Pete aren’t going to be selling me anything.

  101. Mark at #

    Charlie,
    #1 Nobody fyi comes on a “forum was for an intelligent discussion on muscle building” & asks other men to post pictures of their muscles.

    #2 Besides Pete Sisco, Arthur Jones made contributions to bodybuilding which will never be eclipsed. The largest clinically proven lean body mass gain was executed by Arthur Jones w/ Casey Viator gaining over 60lbs of muscle in one month. Jones proved 99.99% of everything most competitive bb’ers was doing was wrong at best, including exogenous hormone use.

  102. charlie at #

    Mark,

    Anybody that has been so vocal about making such an outrageous claim of gaining 35 lb of muscle and working out only once every six months had better have some darn good evidence to prove it. If not pictures, then what is your proof?
    There is a legal maxim that says “evidence not presented is presumed not to exist”.
    Mark, the fact is, I’ve seen no evidence and thus I don’t believe you gained 35 lb of muscle working out once every 6 months. Like I said before, I’d really like to believe you Mark, but where is your evidence?

  103. Mark at #

    In addition to gaining 35lbs of muscle in one year from (2) w/outs I gained almost 20 of that 35 from (1) w/out. The proof I have of this is when I was admitted into a hospital in September of last year & I weighed 218lbs, I now weigh around 250lbs (+/- 5lbs). Since September of last year I’ve performed (3) PFT w/outs w/ each one at least 10+% higher output than the previous.

    Whether you believe me or not is up to you. In thirty (30) freakin’ years of bodybuilding I have never produced gains anywhere close to ones I have this past year by simply applying the principles I got from a $3 used book from Amazon.com. No stupid drugs, protein, nothing but a tiny amount of very heavy lifting & a helluva lotta rest.

  104. charlie at #

    Ok Mark, now we’re getting somewhere. You have records that indicate your weight at different times. So obviously the question to ask is how exactly did you determine how much of that bodyweight gain is muscle gain?

  105. Mark at #

    I don’t know what % of my gains are muscle but my bodyfat is definitely lower than it was a year ago & I was 40lbs lighter.

  106. Mark at #

    A hugely important factor never discussed that only Arthur Jones discovered is the (2) types of individuals who exist in the world. One is “type G” (general) this type display a full-range response to strength training despite only training a very limited range of movement. The other is “type S” these individual’s response is only in the range exercised and not through the whole range of movement. I suspect ^ this is THE biggest factor which enables some people to go on to develop the startlingly impressive muscular development demonstrated by pro bodybuilders. I seem to by a “type G” as my entire body grows like a weed from simply DL’ing over a less than 2 inch ROM. It makes sense that this trait is probably distributed throughout the population in a bell curve type of distribution w/ some people getting huge responses (me) and others demonstrating limited responses progressively narrowing down to a much smaller response in only the muscles directly involved in DL’ing. < These people are the ones who knock PFT/SCT and equate their responses to PFT/SCT being non-effective. I am far from an authority on this subject only a humble student of Arthur Jones & Pete Sisco.

    The possible benefits of this hugely important discovery go far beyond a superficial display of impressive muscular development. I & Arthur Jones feel the therapeutic medical implications of properly applied strength training could save billions ($$) world-wide spent on lumbar area therapy since billions are spent yearly on this subject. Jones' MED-X corporation could, if allowed to be proliferate, negate the vast majority of unnecessary back surgeries performed yearly w/ little if any real benefits. A complete treatment w/ MED-X equipment costs around $2,500 whereas a lumbar disc surgery is more than $200K.

    http://www.arthurjonesexercise.com/Other/Response.PDF

  107. Mark at #

    arthurjonesexercise.com/Extras/AJDay.PDF

  108. charlie at #

    Ok Mark thanks for the information.

    By the way, a while back I was in an email discussion with Pete Sisco and pointed out like you did, the results of Arthur Jones’ Colorado experiment as being noteworthy. Pete responded with his opinion that the Colorado experiment was a Fraud.
    I disagree with him however, because I see the experiment shows the truth, that if one is way down below one’s bodyweight for one reason or another, the body, under these conditions is capable of rapidly returning to it’s normal condition and then the gains begin so slow down. I’ve repeated similar results to the Colorado Experiment myself back in 2011 when my weight went down 25 lb due to small crisis and upon resuming training, I rapidly returned to my regular bodyweight in about 2 weeks – it was amazing, just like Jones’ Experiment.

    And I personally spoke to Casey Viator in 1979 during a visit to Deland Fl and asked him if he had to eat a lot during the experiment and his response was that he had to “really shovel it down.”

  109. Mark at #

    One very interesting issue I’d like to point out is a clearer understanding of what “recovery” truly is needed before medical science can begin to take advantage of the awesome therapeutic possibilities strength training has. I’m now convinced the long held belief that muscle tissue is the operative factor in recovery from intense exercise is wrong. Skeletal muscle has a plentiful blood supply whereas connective tissue does not. As a result of each PFT/SCT w/out I always quickly gain lbm after I train but my joints ache for months afterwards. This IMO is reason for the fatigue and looooong length of time required to recover before a person is able to train again & show significant improvement not the BS of “micro-tears” in the type IIA & B fibers. I stand just as big a chance of being wrong on this subject as I do right but my limited medical knowledge I feel I am right. Check out how long a torn ligament requires to completely heal. This mode of thought has to be in the right direction.

  110. Mark at #

    Here’s a great example of someone w/ short biceps & triceps still being able to develop impressive arms, if thats of great interest to you. It isn’t to me as arms IMO are ornaments on a christmas tree,

    http://quotesdna.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/1982349_1428277377415081_339289240_n.jpg

  111. Mark at #

    W/ bodyweight being a prominent issue on this thread I thought it would be good to post a pic of one the top 10 pro bb’er physiques in the world today, Shawn “Flexatron” Rhoden. He competes at 5’10”, 240lbs. For me (or anyone structurally similar to me) to be at a comparable level of muscular development and bodyfat level I”ll most likely be heavier than Mr Rhoden. This demonstrates what an optical illusion competitive bb’ing truly is to a degree & too many hopefuls (myself included) become fixated on reaching a certain bodyweight which is easily accomplished for most men w/ PFT/SCT.

    http://www.sixpackbags.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Shawn-Rhoden-Meal-Prep-Bulking-Up.jpg

  112. Jacin at #

    Pete, what do you think about the comments of drew baye for power factor training?

  113. Is there a good argument for not measuring intensity?

    How does Drew measure the objective intensity of every exercise on every workout? And how does he make certain he gets progressive intensity every time he returns to the gym?

  114. Mark at #

    I am now convinced that “recovery” is not truly the limiting factor impeding progress in bodybuilding. Its clear to me now that local muscle cell recovery takes a relatively small amount of time. Its the CNS & the degree of activity (stimulation) as a result of training that limits progress. Some people are highly sensitive (me) & they’re nervous systems take much longer to for lack of a better phrase “calm down” before the CNS can be stimulated again. Your CNS like a pond and training is like throwing a rock into that still pond. Its the CNS’s perception or sensitivity of the pond to that rock’s impact on the surface of the water is what determines how much of an inroad training makes & how the CNS is stimulated which results in hypertrophy and/or strength increases. Whether a person’s exercised muscle grows in size/strength is the % of that muscle’s fast twitch fibers. This is why I assert that a w/out must be viewed as an orthopedic surgical procedure. Anyone who lifts more often than he gets his hair cut is doing it more for psychological reasons & not physiological.

  115. Mark at #

    Its now been 4 months & counting and I am still nowhere near ready to train again. I’m hoping I’ll be ready in 2 months but its not going to surprise me one bit if I end up waiting until May which would be 8 months. Totally ridiculous beyond words!

  116. William at #

    Hi Pete,

    Wondering how the Power-Factor-Minimalism-study is going. Since presently only set up for Static contraction training looking forward to the results. Soon will be getting the equipment to apply the results.

  117. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    I succumbed to tempatation & lifted a few days after the (4) four month point 🙁
    Despite logging no measureable increase in output in the DL I still feel like I gained 3-5lbs as I’ve severely reduced my caloric intake and have a visible reduction in bodyfat but I’m still 251lbs. I did, however, record an impressive 51% fifty-freakin’ percent in the BP exercise. Strangely though despite the huge PF increase & significant visible fat loss from my chest it still measures the same thing. ??? I’m wonder if the body has some kinda internal scale and replaces fat weight loss w/ muscle weight gain. ??? Check out this pic of 1lb of fat compared to 1lb of muscle.

    http://i2.wp.com/bamboocorefitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/how_it_works_muscle_fat1.jpg?resize=641%2C278

    I sold my truck and used some of the $$ to buy (6) six 100lb Olympic plates & a Hexbar so I now have my ultimate goal poundage of 1,000lbs+ used FOR REPS (PFT 25+). I’m thinking by the time I am using 1,000lbs FOR REPS (PFT) I should be at least another 25lbs heavier & hopefully at least 25lbs less fat leaner.

    I’m going to rest, no matter what, (8) eight months (in an extreme rest experiment before I lift again. Again if someone would have told me at 145lbs 33yrs ago I’d one day be about 100lbs heavier at a lower bodyfat level I would have laughed my ass off at them. This would not be possible w/out Pete Sisco & PFT. No drugs, supplements, no idiot trainer in a “gimme yore money” commercial gym.

  118. William at #

    Mark – Thank you Mark for sharing your progress and showing it is not that hard to gain muscle and strength if we listen to our body. You continue to Inspire and look forward to hear of your progress.

    Pete – Hi Pete, hope we will learn more about your new study on Minimum Training soon.

  119. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    William,
    I can tell you I plan on using 100lbs more in august than I did in January for at the same # of reps done in the same amount of time I did January. I encourage everyone serious of size & strength to get a CAP MEGA HEX BAR.

    https://www.primefitnessgear.com/cap-barbell-weight-bar-2-inch-zinc-plated-mega-hex-bar-olympic?language=en&currency=USD

    For less than $100 you get THE heaviest hex bar made (that I’m aware of) that will hold approx. 1275lbs. Anyone who can PFT for reps, not singles, is going to be one thick hombre IMO. I estimate once I reach that level, and make no mistake I WILL, I’ll have a 20″ neck, 54″ chest, 17.5″ arms, 52″ butt, 32″ thighs. Very few attain that level ^. All done 100% naturally. No drugs!

    Floor presses are the only additional exercise you might need, if that.

  120. Louie at #

    a friend of mine had an injury and he was out of the gym for 4 months. He complained how he shrunk away to nothing and got weak.

    Its funny how people training regular shrink away but our style retains muscle and strength.

    Why do you think people training the typical extremly high volume way shrink after long rest.. Or they claim they did…

  121. I have no idea without seeing their weight/bf/measurements. Which they likely never keep. Maybe they confuse chronic inflammation and edema with growth and size gains.

  122. Werewolf at #

    Hi Pete Sisco,

    I practise SCT and can not do static 90 degree biceps curl in beginning I progressed or 2 times then I no longer made progressed. How can I fix it, to make progress. I
    make progress in other exercises.

  123. 1. You can’t expect every muscle group in the body to progress at exactly the same rate. There are always areas that lag.

    2. Whenever you are not making progress – and all other factors (diet, illness, technique) are unchanged the ONLY answer is to allow more time to recover and grow new muscle. Most people just don’t realize that recovery time is a moving target. The time you need in April is not the same as it is in June.

  124. Werewolf at #

    I have trained for months but still have not progressed in 90 degrees SCT biceps curls.

  125. Werewolf at #

    I have trained for months but still have not progressed in 90 degrees SCT biceps curls. I only made progress the two first biceps workout of all workouts I have done.

  126. Werewolf at #

    Hi Pete Sisco,

    What angle should you have when doing weigted sit-ups. I do it with EZ curl bar behind neck or head.

  127. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    IMO your biceps more than likely simply cannot handle being directly trained. This is why I & alot of others get much better overall results from Pete’s Consolidation routine. Bodybuilding is MUCH more invasive than 99% of people are aware of. Especially so on highly sensitive people.

  128. Werewolf at #

    How do I do Pete’s consolidation routine?

  129. What consolidation routine?

  130. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    To get the maximum yield for your effort you (or anyone else) needs to use absolute least amount of volume done at the maximum level of intensity. The partial-range deadlift (or Healthlift) is that ^. The actual # of reps/sets varies from person to person but not 1,000%. Some people (ME) acheives the highest PF/PI by using just (1) set. Others may need more. Arthur Jones said “Keep the fast-twitch athlete in the deep freeze until a few seconds before the gun goes off” (as in a sprint race), “Let the slow-twitch athlete run half the race before it even begins”. I need (0) no warm-up whatsoever before lifting maximum weights. Others may need several work-up sets before they can reach they’re maximum output level.

    The only exercise anyone needs in addition to the DL is the floor press which is very secondary & never delivers more than 10% of the gains delivered by the DL. Arthur Jones trained the incredible Casey Viator before he won top level bodybuilding contests & when he did it was for no more than 8- 10 wks per year 2 -3 times per week. So thats 40 – 44 weeks per year of no productive training to be the best of the best. Casey did train himself during the off time but he invariably lost size/strength every time he did that.

  131. William at #

    Werewolf: Mark William Winchester Sr is right in it is not more is better. Recovery is highly undervalued. Just as Pete’s training principles are not meant to be a cookie cutter plan, a trainee needs to balance their training with recovery.

    As Mark stated…”To get the maximum yield for your effort you (or anyone else) needs to use absolute least amount of volume done at the maximum level of intensity.” is the heart of what Pete has been showing us.

    Pete: hope to hear more on your Power-Factor-minimalism-study in the near future.

  132. William at #

    Mark William Winchester Sr – Thank you for your continued inspiring progress and links you share with us. Best of Success !

  133. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Well William the only thing I can say re: inspiration is if I can go from 154lbs to 254lbs & progress on to 280lbs+ ANYONE can. There is absolutely no way anyone can estimate another person’s bodybuilding potential. How much someone hypertrophies in response to strength training is impossible to calculate.

    Nothing but a normal life & diet is required. No drugs, no BS supplements, no million-dollar equipment…NOTHING but a hard as hell work ethic & the burning desire to become the absolute largest & strongest you can which in reality is hell & gone alot further than anyone’s mind can envision. If a man can’t push himself 2x a freakin’ year to brink of collapsing then he’ll never reach the upper limits of his genes. I can & will or die trying.

  134. William at #

    Mark William Winchester Sr, through your success and progress, you inspire others to open their eyes to the blind dogma surrounding training showing anyone can gain strength and muscle. Each of us having the potential within us to find out how far we can take it.

    Especially by not relying on some bogus supplements, living in the gym, or other such nonsense. By using ordinary food, unwavering desire to become the strongest, largest, healthest you can be, all the while enjoying life outside of the gym.

    Best of Success !!

  135. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Anyone can contact the infamous “Dr Ken” who worked at the Nautilus factory w/ Casey & ask if Casey used drugs or supplements. I did & Ken told me “Casey was worried about two thing Fishing and Fu$#ing. His diet mainly consisted of cheeseburgers & whatever fish he caught at one of beautiful lakes nearby Lake Helen. He used no drugs as Arthur had his room (which Arthur provided for free) searched frequently and Casey had no $$ to buy Weider’s worthless protein powder. Now after Casey & his dad tried to squeeze Jones for more $$ & left to train w/ Mentzer in so cal I’m sure Casey was filled to gills w/ steroids. But isn’t it interesting how after leaving Jones he NEVER won another major competition??? Hard-assed worked is the only way to the top and it doesn’t get any harder than a properly executed PFT not mention an even harder SCT w/out.

  136. Werewolf at #

    Hi Pete Sisco,

    What different consolidation techniques exist and how are they done?

    Thanks.

  137. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/116007851649864883389/posts/FvZQmj4SquA?pid=6273471929904607858&oid=116007851649864883389

    ^ Here’s proof of my weight claim. If its not accessible someone please let me know
    pft50k@gmail.com

    Thanks!

    Mark

  138. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    i was actually 129lbs in the wheelchair shortly after my damn near fatal car accident.

  139. Werewolf at #

    Could you please give me consolidation routine, explain which exercises to do in what day.

  140. Werewolf at #

    Pete Sisco at #
    What consolidation routine?

    Answer: consolidation routine, super consolidation routine or ultimate consolidation routine.

    Which one do you recommend for me?

  141. William at #

    @ Werewolf – are you referring to Pete’s Static Contraction Training, Power – Factor Training, or his recent work on Minimalism training using just two exercises the deadlift and the bench press at this website – http://www.precisiontraining.com/power-factor-training-minimalism-study/?

    Check the link mentioned above to see if that helps you.

  142. @Werewolf, I think you’re at the wrong website.
    I’ve never used the terms,”consolidation routine, super consolidation routine or ultimate consolidation routine.” Must be some other guy suggesting all that.

  143. Werewolf at #

    Pete Sisco at #
    @Werewolf, I think you’re at the wrong website.
    I’ve never used the terms,”consolidation routine, super consolidation routine or ultimate consolidation routine.” Must be some other guy suggesting all that.

    What do you suggest one do when regular Static Contraction Training with “5” exercises per workout no longer works?

  144. Werewolf at #

    What do you suggest one do when regular Static Contraction Training with “5” exercises per workout no longer works?

  145. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    Overtraining in 99.999% of cases is THE reason for lack of progress. Try dropping everything but the partial-range DL. Anyone who can do a 10+ second SCT hold of 1,000lbs will have no shortage of muscle anywhere on his body.

  146. Werewolf at #

    I no longer make any progress in the exercises in Static Contraction Training in fact I am weaker. What should I do to make progress in my training?

  147. Werewolf at #

    You wrote do a partial in your post but you meant Static Contraction Training. With DL you meant deadlift or? Will squat alone be as well as deadlift in each workout

  148. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    Yes I did say “partial”. I don’t enough plates right now (8 – 100lb plates shipping this week) to give SCT an honest shot. I already know the intensity of the muscular contraction w/ SCT is much greater w/ SCT than PFT so it’s potential benefits are greater. As I said anyone who can SCT the only exercise that hits EVERY single major muscle group in the body at once (the DL) in the locked position using 1,000+lbs for at least 10 real seconds besides having no shortage of muscle anywhere in they’re body will only need to train few times per year if that. Ask Pete how heavy 1,000lbs feels…I’m sure since he’s done could give you a very clear description.

  149. Werewolf at #

    Is it effective to train Static Contraction Training with squat instead of deadlift as only exercise?

  150. Werewolf at #

    When you wrote “partial” did you mean static contraction training

  151. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf
    The squat is THE most over-rated BS exercise known to man. When you add the massive poundages required to adequately train PFT or SCT its sheer stupidity. Trust me I learned the hard way. The delicate invertebrateal discs, especially in the cervical/thoracic areas, were never intended for a small steel HEAVY bar to placed directly on them. This is what your hands are for. All thats required IMO for maximum muscular size/strength stimulation is the DL. Thats it. There is NO other exercise in which you can safely load the body w/ as much weight as you can in the DL. The intensity of the growth stimulation delivered by a 1,000lb+ partial or static DL to the entire body is sooo far more than any other exercise it pointless to even analyze it. I fully intend on returning my 1,000lb hooks to the manufacturer bent from too much weight (hopefully 1,500+lbs). He’s already told me IF I do that w/ the video to prove he’ll free of charge make a heavier pair for me. Paul Anderson used 1,900lbs in the partial squat which developed him into a 5’9″, 360lb beast!

    I’m fairly sure once I am at ^ that level I’ll be at least 35lbs lbm heavier which would be approx. 290lbs.

  152. Werewolf at #

    With DL you mean deadlift?

  153. Werewolf at #

    With DL you mean doing deadlift static contraction training style or?

  154. Werewolf at #

    Should I do only one exercise one set or? That exercise being Deadlift.

  155. Werewolf at #

    Mark William Winchester Sr. at #
    “Wolf,
    IMO your biceps more than likely simply cannot handle being directly trained. This is why I & alot of others get much better overall results from Pete’s Consolidation routine. Bodybuilding is MUCH more invasive than 99% of people are aware of. Especially so on highly sensitive people.”

    Pete Sisco wrote as he never heard of consolidation routines.

    What is right?

  156. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    IMO, not Pete’s but mine & mine the partial-range Dead Lift (DL) is the only anyone needs as it simultaneously hits EVERY major muscle group sparing precious recovery energy for recovery, not inferior exercises. The sheer genius of PFT is to do whatever leads to the highest PF. Just as explained on page #21 the trainee should use whatever weight he can safely complete the most reps w/ in a minute. I assume Pete used this basic horsepower formula since the only smaller universal measurement of time is a second which would be too small. Besides the human anaerobic window of time is in the majority of cases no more than 90 seconds and can be as small as 30 seconds. There is no everyone should do (1) set or (3) sets or whatever. Use whatever weight allows the max # of reps in a minute for most people.

    As far which style to use my personal opinion is that across the board SCT provides a much more intense muscular contraction which of course is going to result in a stronger growth signal being sent to the CNS. This is the only factor thats important. Not idiotic testosterone level. Trust me when I used steroids I had my Test. level around 1,200 ng/dl & that did NOTHING. Its bullshit. Dr John Bosley Zeigler himself said tinkering w/ a man’s test. level in hopes of increasing performance was THE worst medical mistake he ever made in his near 50yr medical career. What you eat has (0) effect on your results, before or after your w/out.

    Again, the only problem is that the majority of training equipment is based on flawed “you must use a supposed full-range” and 45lbs plates are the heaviest available in 90+% of gyms. Which is why I started simply buying 100lb plates & training at home.

    The only other advice I would give (repeat) is to use what is known as a “Hex” bar. There is (0) contact w/ the body so the only friction is minimal internal muscular friction which occurs w/ opposing muscle groups. For less than $100 you can get a CAP MEGA HEX bar which will hold (6) 100lb plates on each collar. So thats 1200lbs in plates + the bar weighs a massive 75lbs. I’ve never seen or known ANYONE who could budge any bar that goddam heavy much less do 30+ 2in partial reps in less than one minute! Hell I doubt freakin’ Paul Anderson could do that. While I’m on the subject of Paul Anderson his heaviest witnessed squat was 1,100lbs done 100% raw, no belt, no wraps, no drugs, no suit, no nothing. If he access to the accessories lifters use today he doubt could’ve squatted at or near 1,500lbs which no one in our lifetime has or will ever do.

  157. Werewolf at #

    Is Mark William Winchester Sr. spokesman for Pete Sisco? I have noticed they contradict each other (nothing bad meant).

    Pete Sisco, is one to do 1 rep Deadlift and no more training?

  158. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    Thats my fault. Pete never has marketed a “Consolidation” routine. He simply is experimenting w/ what has worked wonders for me on the general public which is basically the DL & BP. I honestly don’t think the inclusion of the BP contributes any more than 10% of the total gains done in that ^ routine. The muscles of the upper back once trained have the potential in everyone to grow so far out of proportion to they’re original size an idiot can see how we humans have evolved from walking in a semi-upright posture. No muscle on the anterior side of body on anyone can grow like the traps & lats can. None.

    Try it for yourself & you’ll see I’m right. Just use the partial-range DL and nothing else.

  159. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    No I am in now way involved w/ Pete Sisco. He’s not my type. Ha ha ha ha. My opinions are mine & mine only NOT Pete’s. I just know he’s more right than anyone else out there. I’m a highly sensitive person who needs very little volume and the DL fills the bill form perfectly.

  160. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOOwGhaFpVk Pete’s reaction to my unwanted advances at the (1:55) mark. Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!

    Gimme a kiss baby!!!!

  161. Werewolf at #

    Pete Sisco, is one to do 1 rep Deadlift and no more training. I would like Sisco himself to answer. The situation is that I no longer progress on “5 exercise per workout” and I am actually getting weaker.

  162. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    Jeez bro you don’t need Pete or me or anyone else. Your body is telling you its tired, its overtrained. How deep of a hole you’ve dug for yourself no one, not even Pete, can tell you. My advise is sit on your butt & don’t even think about lifting weights for 90 days, if not 6 months. It ain’t hormone level or protein intake or any other factor. Your overtrained & you can’t buy or bullshit your way out of it. Its like getting the flu. Only time will fix it. OTC meds will treat the symptoms but not fix it, only time will do that.

  163. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    When I referenced Paul Anderson I meant the hypothetical possibility of him using PFT not SCT. Anderson would probably need in excess of 2,000lbs if not 2,500lbs to provide enough resistance for him to reach failure in 10 seconds.

  164. Werewolf at #

    Which should I do rest or Deadlift alone at workout?

  165. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    The one & only thing you can do is rest, rest ,rest & then rest some more. There is no human way possible to evaluate this but training itself & as you’ve already stated your getting progressively weaker/smaller. I’ll say it again…YOU ARE OVERTRAINED!. 3-6 months of sitting your butt is the only thing that will fix this. < That & the realization that all you need to do is the partial-range DL w/ as heavy a weight as possible for the most reps possible completed w/in 60 – 90 secs. Then rest again for a month or so, maybe 4 -6 months. Then repeat shooting for at least 10% increase in PF and/or PI. As Arthur Jones said this stuff is as old as dirt and just as simple.

  166. charlie at #

    Here’s a question for those that do the 6 month between workouts: What do you do in between these every 6 month workouts to meet your daily needs for movement, increased circulation and to promote the good feeling that exercise provides over a sedentary lifestyle?

  167. The short answer is, any exercise that doesn’t involve lifting anything even close to your maximum weight or using maximum strength output over a given amount of time. (Which is about 98% of all exercise.)

  168. Mark W. is a longtime customer and a serious student of the iron game. He has experienced great success using the deadlift only and seems to recommend it to everyone.

    I, however, have learned that extrapolating from what works best for one human does not always apply to 7 billion humans. The variation between individuals is staggering. That’s why penicillin works great for most of us, but literally kills some people.

    This is why I make training decisions off of DATA from workout to workout on EACH individual. That’s the empirical way to make certain that objective progress is being made by any individual.

    Most people failing in the gym are keeping no records of their objective intensity or their total work per unit of time as a ratio of recovery time. They are blind. Do that, with the deadlift or a dozen exercises, and you are doomed to inefficiency at best, and abject failure at worst.

  169. Werewolf at #

    Which should I do rest or Deadlift alone at workout?
    When I have rested enough should I do deadlift one rep only per workout or everyother workout compared to before having rested?

  170. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    Forget about lifting weights or anything to do w/ it for the next 90 days at least, maybe longer. The locked-out position of the DL activates every single muscle in everyone’s body regardless of limb length, strength, etc.. There is no other exercise that comes close the muscle building potential of the DL….nothing. In the squat & leg press (regardless of what angle) in the completed position the resistance is (0). It is only in the completed position that activation of the highest # of muscle fibers is possible. This the core of Arthur Jones’ NAUTILUS machines and also the cause of their demise. People thought “Oh this state-of-the-art design w/ enable me to quickly built an Ahnuld physique”. Yes they could do that but those machines made conventional free-weight exercises seem like a vacation. The cam multiplied the resistance used exponentially make them MUCH, MUCH harder than normal exercises. Once the public figured out just how freakin’ painful that genius old man’s machines were when properly used the public being weak sheeple stopped buying the machines & membership to Nautilus gyms. Jones saw the decline & sold the company washing hands of trying to educate the public w/ the physiological fact building big muscles quickly is a damn, damn hard, painful endeavor.

    IMO Jones was mainly wrong about the need for full-range resistance but very, very right about the absolute need for high levels of resistance in the fully contracted position. The DL does this beautifully. This is why IMO Paul Anderson probably, if training SCT, would need at least 2,000lbs in order to reach total muscular failure in the DL in under 10 seconds. In fact, it was Anderson who pioneered using partial-range reps. He just failed to realize partials provide all the ROM you need, although technically you really don’t need any movement at all.

    So just go lay on your couch for the next 3+ months, maybe 6 months. Then return to the gym. I think you’ll be surprised at the improvement. The need for daily exercise is a myth. Unless your an endurance athlete & if you are weightlifting really doesn’t have alot to offer you in the first place IMO.

    I have learned MUCH more listening to Pete Sisco and applying his principles in the past 4yrs (once I grasped them) than I did in the 20 before that listening to the absolute garbage that fills 99.999% of training books on the market. Learn from my hard, painfully learned wisdom. The DL is all you need. Wherever your most hypertrophically responsive muscle fibers are they’ll be hit as hard or harder than a much lighter, inferior exercise ever will and you won’t use up precious recovery energy using them.

    I now require a minimum of 8 months to recover from less than 1:00 minute of PFT training & that will very soon be a freakin’ year, which is ridiculous but it works. And when I say it “works” I mean gains like 10-20lbs PER W/OUT!!!!

  171. Werewolf at #

    Please Sisco answer:
    Which should I do rest or Deadlift alone at workout?
    When I have rested enough should I do deadlift one rep only per workout or everyother workout compared to before having rested?

  172. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    No offense to ya but my amateur advice is free. Pete’s professional advice is not free. Pete pays for the bandwidth to keep this blog running. If want analytical, fact based training information you’ll need to pay Pete for his time. Whatever tiny amount of $$ you spend getting THE best information in the world is money very well spent.

  173. Werewolf at #

    Please Mark answer:
    Which should I do rest or Deadlift alone at workout?
    When I have rested enough should I do deadlift one rep only per workout or everyother workout compared to before having rested?
    Would Sisco agree to your answers to my questions?

  174. Werewolf at #

    Please Mark answer:
    When I have rested eniough, should I do DEADLIFT as the only alone at every workoutworkout? What frequency should I do deadlift workouts?

    Would Sisco agree to your answers to my questions?

  175. Werewolf at #

    I meant Static Contraction Training in the post

  176. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    My opinion is the partial-range DL is the only exercise you or anyone else needs. Period. But bear in mind to squeeze this incredible exercise for everything its worth you must train it much heavier than you ever believed possible (500-1,000lbs). I’m 250lbs and “only” used 565lbs last w/out so god knows how large I”ll or you or anyone else can get once their using 1,000+lbs. I’ve never seen it done personally. But it one helluva goal to aim for IMO. Do as many 2in. reps as you can w/in a minute or so. One tip is to use cushioned supports and fully terminate the movement of the bar on each rep. Don’t bouce the bar off the supports. Also make sure you FULLY LOCK-OUT each rep pushing your hips all the way forward slightly leaning back feeling your glutes lock out the rep.

    If I were you I wouldn’t even think about touching a barbell until August 1 and then I’d only perform the DL….thats it. Pete disagrees w/ this. Thats fine.

    Also get yourself a CAP MEGA HEX bar. Its vastly superior to the standard bar & a sheer genius of a design idea by Al Gerard. For less than $100 you get the heaviest Hex bar on the market I’m aware of. At the least it’ll provide years of use & if you do ever exceed it’s capacity I guarantee you’ll be at 45lbm lbs heavier by the time you do. No stupidass unnecessary health destroying drugs, no “gimme yore money” worthless supplements. Just hard-ass work & a helluva lotta rest. It doesn’t matter one bit what you eat. You can live off candy bars & cokes & get the same results. I’m NOT saying its healthy I’m just saying your diet has NO effect on your gains as long as you consume a decent amount of calories.

  177. Werewolf at #

    Am I supposed to rest from training 90 days to 3 months then start training DEADLIFT only once a workout?
    What frequency should I have when I start training again?

  178. Werewolf at #

    With DL or dl do you mean DEADLIFT?

  179. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    One last time because I was once like you & didn’t know shit about this stuff. Rest for 90 days (no exercise whatsover besides a brisk walk once or twice a week). Then return to lifting no more frequent than once every other month or so maybe 3 months or more. Just do the DeadLift (DL) once time w/ as heavy a weight as possible for as many reps as possible completed w/in no more one minute or so. Counting sets is wrong just like me focusing on 1,000lbs on the bar as a sole goal is wrong. Lifting 1,000lbs one time doesn’t prove a damn thing. Lifting it 25 times in less than :55 seconds is impressive IMO. As Pete says in the “bible”…Once you start thinking in lbs per minute your goals become crystal clear.

  180. Werewolf at #

    You explained how to do Deadlift Power Factor Traing style, but I do Static Contraction Training. Should I just do Static Contraction Training Deadlifts instead Power Factor Training style.

    Thanks for your answers.
    They are appreciated.

  181. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    SCT is easier to do. Just pick a very heavy weight (500-700lbs) and DeadLift into the lockout and do your damndest to hold it for 10-15 seconds before you hit failure & have to drop it. One time. Thats it. SCT’ing the DL is THE hardest thing you’ll ever do in your life. I’d suggest starting off PFT’ing it for at least a year but you do what you want. If I were to train SCT in the DL it probably would take at least 800lbs just to start. Thats why I said if Paul Anderson were to train the DL using SCT he would need at least 1,800lbs if not 2,000lbs and would quickly work past 2500lbs.

  182. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    I think you’d be well advised not to SCT the DL until you’ve got more experience. You can easily screw your spine up permanently using very heavy weights like this if your form is not absolutely impeccable. W/ PFT you can set the bar down for a second and reset. Do what you want but don’t say I didn’t warn you if you dislodge a vertebrae or collapse a disc. Your body has to be ready for shit this heavy bro. I’d say yours isn’t by any means.

  183. Werewolf at #

    How do you recommend I do if deadlift is risky to do SCT style?

  184. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Bro anything connected w/ free weights is risky/dangerous. You don’t enough experience IMO to properly do a SCT w/out. Just do PFT for a year or better yet two. Training very short-range reps w/ VERY heavy weights is a skill unto itself & has to learned.

  185. Werewolf at #

    Could you tell me how train maximal intensily using SCT when deadlift is risky?

  186. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Its not IF you have all the right safety equipment in place. Its just easy to tweak your back when using god-awful heavy weights & its months to recover from it IF ever. Don’t take my word for it. Wait until Aug 1, load up 600lbs+ on a bar IN A POWER RACK and try to hold it in the lockout for more than 10 Looooooong seconds. You’ll be so sore you won’t be able to move.

  187. Werewolf at #

    I want to directly start SCT DL directly after having rested 90+ days, without injurying me. How do I do that?
    Or how do I train after rest to not overtrain?

  188. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    I have wanted to jump into this discussion for some time now as I find Mark’s take on training fascinating and it’s been quite educational for me. Back in 1997 I picked up Pete’s PFT book and attempted to apply it. After a few workouts, I attempted a version of his 1,000,000 pound workout I only hit 400,000+ in an hour or so of shrugs, deadlifts, leg presses and overhead presses. My mistake after that though was related to Mark’s point on resting (and Pete certainly highlighted it enough) but being 37 or so, my concept of resting was 4 or 5 days. Well my next workout sucked and I quit PFT.

    Fast forward about 20 years and the resting/recovery message has sunk in…but I’m a lot more cautious now. Back in 2000-2001 I did several hundred singles with 600-800 lbs in the hand & thigh lift with a 2″ thick, non-revolving bar without straps or hooks. But even with that background, my picking up of SCT is not about loading 600 lbs right out of the gate and trying to do a 10 second + DL hold! At 55 I figure I have 40 more years of lifting to do so patience with loading seems smart.

    Also I decided on SCT after doing PFT again for 2-3 months for a different reason that Pete usually discusses (wanting more volume). For me it’s about control. Mark likes PFT with the DL and from the sound of it, thinks the SCT DL is more risky. I’m just the opposite. I find with 60-90 seconds of PFT, I am unable to maintain good form and tend to tweak the back, whereas with the beta SCT routine, I’m in much better control. I had the same issue years ago with kettlebell training in that the higher reps and my motor moron skills kept my back in a state of soreness.

    Personally, I would love to see Wolf’s workout spreadsheet (weights, dates, hold times, 1 set or beta, etc) for the last year of getting weaker with SCT. Height, weight, age, lifting experience also. Even as a beginner, I can’t imagine having more than a month or two of twice weekly workouts. Even having spent the better part of the last couple years focussing more on bodyweight exercises, it took almost no time to get to once every 7-8 days with a shorter version of the SCT beta workouts. Shorter in that I do:

    W/O 1 – Overhead Press and Shrugs (SCT beta style) and Hammer Rows (60 sec PFT)
    W/O 2 – Deadlift and Bench Press (SCT beta style) and Behind Back Wrist Curls (30 sec PFT)

    I keep track of each exercise and weight and times religiously. And I focus on adding weight each time. So far I find the OH press aids the bench and the shrugs and deadlifts feed off each other as well. Since I did 450 lb for the DL for 4 sets of 5 seconds hold in 2 minutes (beta), why wouldn’t I try 460 or so for the next session of shrugs? On the OHP I did 305 for the beta holds then on the next bench I did 370 for the beta holds…315-320 seems reasonable for the next OHP session. If its a bit too easy…so what it’s still progress, right?

    Why do I do the beta? Again it’s related to being a motor moron. My first 5 sec hold is always ricketty and ugly, but 2&3 feel strong and the 4th is a nightmare of effort.

    As I see it, wolf has some options. Get rested first and foremost. Then:

    #1 Join Pete’s ESG…which would take all the guesswork out of progression
    #2 Try a shorter routine and be mindful of stretching out the rest/recovery periods. If 6 days doesn’t lead to improved numbers (whether they’re 600 lb or 165)…you NEED more rest!! Try taking 10 days off and trying for some improvement ( I wouldn’t recommend going from 165 to 300 or 675).
    #3 Try Mark’s DL-only routine for awhile. If you can only do 35 reps PFT style with 135 lb in 60 seconds today and 3 yrs from now you’re doing 57 reps with 475 in 60 seconds…you’ll be HUGELY stronger! What’s 3 years for that kind of strength progression?

    But patience is required. You can’t do one of these routines and expect to be Mark-like in 6 weeks or 10 weeks…he’s 5’8″ and weighs 250+. Here’s what I mean by patience:

    If you start at 135 on the DL today, and add a mere 5 lbs every 3rd week of working out, at the end of 10 yrs you’re DLing 1005 lbs in whatever style you’ve chosen. You’d be a monster!!

    It’s your choice…

  189. William at #

    @ Werewolf – Speaking from my own experience, and believe that is what Mark is too, you need to build up to the level of intensity it takes to do a Static Contraction Deadlift (or any exercise) for one (1) minute.

    Just as Mark pointed out previously, Static Contraction training is the next rung up the ladder of intensity from Power Factor Training. That is why it’s best to progress first with Power Factor Training, then progress into Static Contractions. Even Mark has shared how he progressed to where he is now. Learn from those that have already done it.

    However, if you do start with the Static Contractions, just as Pete points out in his book on the subject, you build on the amount of weight as well as time. One does not simply walk up and start doing a 1000 lbs Static Contraction Deadlift without building step by step to that. Just consider your own progress is in steps, you probably didn’t immediately get to the level you are now overnight. Let that fire of wanting to progress fuel your vision to one day accomplish that goal, then take the steps to get you there.

  190. Werewolf at #

    This is how I have trained during the years:

    1/2 years training without plan.
    1/2 year nautilus training.
    1 year training freestyle but keeping plans
    4 months SCT training at gym
    4 months regular weight training.
    5+ months SCT training at home.

  191. Werewolf at #

    Where I wrote “4 months regular weight training” I meant at home.

  192. Werewolf at #

    I have had periods without training inbetween training periods

  193. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    OK, now for the 9 months of SCT training, what have you done? Something like this as an example:

    4 Feb 16 – Bench 135 x 5 sec hold, DL 165 x 5 sec hold
    6 Feb 16 – OH press 115 x 5 sec hold, Shrug 185 x 5 sec hold

    Give us your last 2 months of getting weaker training. Include your height & weight, age.

    I don’t post here often, but I love this website and consider Pete a pure genius! It’s all about the numbers. On the made up schedule above, if your next workout was 7 Feb and you could only do the bench with 125 x 3 sec hold…you needed more time off. Adjust it.

    If the next workout was 9 Feb and you benched 140 x 5 sec hold and DL’d 175 x 5 sec hold…GREAT you made progress! Maybe you could’ve done 143 and 177 for 5 sec holds but how in the world is anyone going to know that beforehand?

    And if you’re after size gains, say your bench and DL go from the above to 175 & 235 for 5 sec holds but you only gained a pound or two. Again it’s progress and its built on a pretty low training volume. Continue to add weight, make the 5 sec time, increase the interval between sessions as dictated by the progress or lack of and understand that there is an element of “art” to the science of numbers. The only way to bypass that is to join Pete’s ESG program.

    But you gotta stop jumping so frequently between programs and you must be more patient/realistic. I’ve spent 42+ years of my life lifting and I have never even remotely looked like a bodybuilder…at best a smaller version of today’s defensive lineman (maybe an offensive lineman). But I can’t compare myself to these 20 yr olds who’re way better built and who can spend 2 hrs doing curls…and I don’t.

    As Mark would likely say, work damn hard, rest like crazy, add weight and do it for years. Forget the instant gratification and stop thinking you’re going to add 500 lbs to your bench and pack on 45 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks. Get to work with either the PFT or the SCT and stick with it for a couple years. It takes time and you will make mistakes. Just keep at it!

  194. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    Here’s a good example of the effect of using ridiculously heavy poundages w/careless form. Granted Coleman’s use of drugs was also a significant factor in his ongoing physical decline. His spine is permanently shot to hell. He will w/out a doubt spend the last decade of his life in a wheelchair unable to walk or to go to bathroom/bathe unassisted. This is mainly due to repeatedly pounding the shit out of his body w/out allowing it recover from the previous beating (w/out). Again ^ this is proof it isn’t hormone level thats the prime factor in bb’ing, despite what 99.999% of idiots think. Its the biological/physiological processes of healing after training that are what’s important & there is NO way whatsoever to chemically intervene and speed those processes up.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/bodybuilding/comments/3e9uum/ronnie_coleman_has_had_six_major_surgeries_to/

    http://www.musclespro.com/2011/12/ronnie-coleman-in-hospital-for-spinal.html#.VyJCbiFRyyo

  195. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    World’s Greatest Bodybuilder – but at one helluva cost!

    http://www.ironmanmag.com.au/profiles/profiles/870-ronnie-colemans-injuries-nwas-it-all-worth-it

  196. Werewolf at #

    After I have waited out the rest of 90 days, how frequently should I train then?

  197. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf
    Bro I already addressed this issue below. V

  198. Werewolf at #

    I failed to make progress that is why I stopped training.
    I have had a hard time finding the 5-15 sec “zone”.

    Bench press 110 kg X 20 second hold

  199. Werewolf at #

    Hi bro,

    I haven’t seen it. Could you please tell me again what frequency one should train deadlift after resting 3-6 months?

  200. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    How quickly do you recover? Arthur Jones did extensive scientific testing & he found extremes in both directions. Some lost a little bit of strength & recovered quickly. Some lost alot of strength & recovered slowly. As Pete says “its a moving target becuz everytime you return to the gym your a different person”. I do know all strength gains are to your disadvantage leveragely speaking. All strength increases are created behind the point of tendon attachment.

    If you train the partial-range DL heavy enough your going to delivering a HUGE amount of growth stimulation which will create an equally HUGE deficit on your body which will take a comparatively much longer time to recover from than say a set of curls or presses. But don’t me mislead as I was for 20 goddam yrs. There’s a big difference between muscular deficit and cardiovascular deficit. The over hyped “20 rep squats” will, when done properly, will drop you like a bad habit and keep you down for days afterwards. But that doesn’t necessarily mean you stimulated an equal amount of muscular growth/adaption. 20 rep squats will get you in great cardiovascular condition but they will never approach the amount of muscular growth stimulation which is possible w/ partial-range deadlifting 600lbs …EVER!!!

    All you can do is try & see. I’d suggest regardless of strength level to wait at least 2-3 months. The bottom line is there is no human sense that will tell you your ready to train again. None.

  201. Werewolf at #

    I have have quickly went over the whole site but can not find answer to my frequency training.
    Could you please tell me what frequency one should train deadlift after resting 3-6 months? 🙂

  202. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    OK we’re getting a little closer as we have some bench numbers, 110kgx20 sec hold.

    So for your first bench workout, use 115kg and shoot for a 5 sec hold (the latest SCT advice is 5 seconds not 5-15 or 20 nor the old 10-30 seconds). Are you going to get this exactly for 5 seconds? Probably not as the SCT process involves some learning. Here’s what has to go through your head:
    1. All the lift factors…grip, position, comfort. Then once you lift the bar off the rack, you have to look/feel if the bar is close to lockout which but not locked out. Then once you’re sure you have the lifted bar where it needs to be, you’ve gotta find your timer (while holding that bar steady) then you start your 5 second count. I wouldn’t go past 8 seconds. Set it down. If you’re only do the 1 set, write down the weight and the time held. If you got 5 seconds…great! This is real, actual progress because it’s more than 110kg. One week later try 120kg for the same 5 seconds using the same process described. And keep doing this.

    Then someday in the future, might be 3 workouts from now or 7 workouts (each with a week off in between)…you are either not going to feel like benching or your benching session will result in you not making your new weight x 5 second goal. Either of those results is a sign of needing more rest and recovery. So go to 10 days off after each bench day. Then it will grow to 15, maybe 20 whatever. There’s no way to give you a workout frequency that will remain the same. And that is one of the hallmarks of Pete’s genius!!! This increasing variability in the rest times is the only that enables so many readers to make progress on most every workout. BUt sooner or later you are likely to miscalculate or just have a bad day and miss. So what. Come back when rested/recovered and improve.

    If you work hard and add 5kg every time you workout over the next 3 years…your bench will be amazing compared to today’s number (110kg). If you can add 5 kg every workout for 20 straight workouts your bench will be 100kg higher…that’s almost double your weight today! Do 40 consecutive workouts with adding 5kg and your bench will be at 310kg (that’s 682 pounds).

    Of course, if you think you can schedule these 20-40 workouts (adding 5kg each time) on the M-W-F schedule…then you’re just not paying attention to Pete or Mark or anyone on this board. If you don’t believe that…then try it!! That’s the beautiful thing about Pete’s research and advice…he tells you you prove him wrong! You wanna bench, DL,shrug, and leg press every day? Go ahead, do it. But record your numbers and post them for all of us to see.

    My last suggestion, actually buy the latest SCT ebook and read it. Get clear on what Pete actually recommends at this time. Then get busy lifting ever-heavier weights and rsting like crazy.

    Can’t wait to see you publishing your numbers here. Remember…everybody has to start somewhere. Good luck!

  203. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    My response to Paul Anderson’s car lift pic. Pump them cheeks son! Ha ha ha ha ha!!!! If you can’t laugh at yourself your weak IMO.

    https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/116007851649864883389/albums/6273471929807620081/6279015291721256898?pid=6279015291721256898&oid=116007851649864883389

  204. Werewolf at #

    I only have four 20 kg plates eighteen 10 kg plates (260 kg)which perhaps is all that fits on my barbell. I also have lower weight plates. What to do when I need more weight to progressively increase resistance

  205. Werewolf at #

    I prefer doing Static Contraction Training, so can I use it with DEADLIFT?
    What do you recommend SCT or PFT? I find the PFT to complicated. Is it OK I only workout same and only exercise when training i.e. 1 exercise or should I do the conventional 10 exercising divided into 2 workouts?

  206. Werewolf at #

    I prefer doing Static Contraction Training, it is that I can I use it with DEADLIFT?
    What do you recommend SCT or PFT? I find the PFT to complicated. Is it OK I only workout same and only exercise when training i.e. 1 exercise or should I do the conventional 10 exercising divided into 2 workouts?

  207. Werewolf at #

    In SCT book it is written that you aim for 5-15 second hold not 5.
    Does Pete Sisco train SCT/PFT/…?

  208. Werewolf at #

    A man said the reason I could lift heavier with SCT/PFT/… was that it was only leverage. Is it true?

  209. Werewolf at #

    I am sorry I ask so many questions.

    Can one believe everything that is written in this site?

  210. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Hell yes it freakin’ leverage. This is discussed in the “bible”. Your limbs/joints are optimally aligned so you can lift far heavier weights in a far safer position than you can w/ man-made weak range reps where you lower the weight as far as possible then try to move it to full extension. Sticking w/ so called “full-range” reps you’ll only get as strong as your weak range allows. Pete makes one helluva damn good example w/ the pushing a stuck car out of a ditch analogy. When you car is stuck do you lower your body all the way down until your butt is on your heels, as in ATF squats? Hell f’in now you don’t! Thats stupid as sh$#! You unlock your knees just far enough to maximally focus your leg/hip strength on pushing your car w/ as much strength as possible. < This is the logic behind PFT…which is sheer genius in it's simplest form on the part of Pete Sisco. Your skeletal muscles don't have a f'in clue what a so-called "full-range" rep is. All they know is the amount of force they are being required to produce. Tell whoever knocked PFT he's full of shit.

  211. Werewolf at #

    Is it OK to train SCT DEADLIFT every 3 days or more when failure to progress.

  212. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf,
    Bro instead of making yourself look like an idiot just buy a copy of the “bible” PFT and read & read & read & re-read it approximately 100 times until you know it by heart page by page. Then you’ll have no questions. You can afford a 1 cent book right?

    http://www.amazon.com/Power-Factor-Training-Scientific-Approach/dp/0809230712/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1461960123&sr=1-1&keywords=power+factor+training

  213. Werewolf at #

    I have already read SCT and PFT and haven’t encountered answers to my qeustions, that is why I ask questions.

  214. Werewolf at #

    Sorry I haven’t read the 1 cent book. I thought you meant other books.

  215. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    Yes you can do the SCT DL though doing it every 3 days is damn unlikely if you’re really pushing the weight for the 5 seconds. Read page 82 in the SCT ebook for the holding time (…now no more than 5 seconds) and a fabulous description on a possible/likely frequency pattern. Like Mark’s advice, read this page until you know it from memory. (Remember Pete experiments with the lifting variables and makes changes to his recommendation in accordance with observed results).

    You haven’t yet told us your DL weights/hold times so we cannot fully evaluate your “amount of weights” question…other than to say when you can do 260kg on either exercise…GO buy more weights! And get yourself a pair of 40-50kg plates…you have plenty of small plates already. But for now based on your bench of 110kg, you have plenty of weight for the next 6-12 months, maybe longer.

    So from what you’ve us, you’re all rested up, you’ve got 260kg of weights (hopefully you have some kind of a rack for safety). The only thing missing right now…is you haven’t grabbed the iron and lifted/timed anything. It’s Friday night, so we’re expecting to see your exercises, weights used, and hold times by Monday morning!! Get busy being successful by starting this weekend.

  216. Werewolf at #

    The cheap book you recommended was for Power Factor Training, I want a suitable Static Contraction Training book. I already have one Static Contraction Training book by Peter Sisco and John R. Little. By the way I also have a Power Factor Training book by the authors Pete Sisco and John Little.

  217. Werewolf at #

    Since I don’t have new SCT book I don’t know how to train SCT different than before to not be overtrained. The book you recommended me to buy was for PFT.

  218. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    For $17 you can have the latest ebook on SCT (pg 82 tells you SCT is now 5 sec hold) and a bonus audio session that lasts 30 mins. I actually prefer the ebook to the original paperback book as I tend to find books with pictures of the drug users annoying at this point in life.

    It’s Saturday early afternoon (EST) and you haven’t posted your SCT session yet. You have bar and 260kgs, you’ve fairly recently done 110kg on the bench press so you must have some type of safety rack. Set your smartphone up so you can time the set(s) and get busy lifting. Sooer or later you hoist some iron for the talk, questions and answers to have any meaning. If you really want to be stronger…you really got lift weights. You say you’ve rested for 90 somedays.

    Pick up some steel man!

  219. Werewolf at #

    I have not trained for 24 rest days. That I have rested 90 days is some kind of misunderstanding.

  220. Werewolf at #

    I know that when you progress you remain with same rest.
    But if you fail to progress how many more rest days should you have?

    In usuall SCT you have probably 3 rest days

  221. Werewolf at #

    Could or should you train Benchpress and deadlift to hit all muscles or it takes to much recovery. I prefer DEADLIFT because its one exercise that trains whole body or?

  222. Werewolf at #

    Just for informations sake I want to say that I have a power rack (they call it power cage).

  223. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    FWIW – I’ve only been doing SCT for 5 or 6 weeks and I started with 6 days in between workouts (and I’m doing the beta version) and for now that’s working. I’m actually forced to take 2 weeks off as I had a cortisone shot in my left elbow a few days ago. 3 days sounds pretty short to me but I don’t know your DL weights nor your weight/height. Also, I’m going to guess you’re on the young side as you seem really keen on working more often.

    I think the DL and bench together, would be an excellent place to start, but every 4th day probably won’t last too long. Then you’ll be looking at 6-7 days then 10-12 etc. Don’t know if you (or I for that matter) will ever get to Mark’s every 6 month cycle. The best part of this routine? It’s easy to do at home! When I want ot do OH presses and the Hammer Row I have to go to the base gym, wait for people to get off the smith machine etc…what a pain. But the DL/Bench combo…that’s right in my basement! And my grand-daughter helps me by holding the smartphone timer so I can see it while benching…all good stuff.

    Hope something here helps you get started!

    Probably the most important part of Pete’s SCT/PFT is the extended and variable rest periods and it is very difficult to wrap your head around it. But if you don’t do this, it won’t take long until your numbers start to suck. I was far too stupid and impatient at 37 to get so I quick a rather effective stretch of PFT because I couldn’t recover in 2-3 days and was unwilling to increase the rest periods. Now at 55, this concept is GOLDEN and it is the bedrock to his system (IMO)!

    Hope this helps

  224. Werewolf at #

    I found the post that made you think I had rested 90 days. What I meant was what to do when I finished resting.

  225. Werewolf at #

    Is it OK if I only train Deadlifts alone using SCT? I would prefer doing the Deadlifts alone SCT style if I still would get overall body hypertrophy from it. What is your opinion?

  226. Werewolf at #

    I meant if it is effective to train deadlift alone compared to training benchpress and deadlift together. Which is it?

  227. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    Of course you’ll some hypertrophy from an SCT DL-only program…but I would caution patience. Here’s why…let’s say you’re 6’1″ tall and weigh 145, and you’re 27. Well then you’re likely a solid ectomorph, you’re past any normal growth spurt so hypertrophy is going to be a long term event and no one can guess how much weight you’ll pack on.

    But here’s the thing to think about…if you do nothing where do you think you’ll be in 5 yrs? Or 10 yrs? You’ll be no where except older, probably fatter, unlikely to be stronger and probably weaker. Bald if the gods really hate you 😉 That outcome sorta sucks, eh?

    Instead, what if you do a progressive-weight DL-only program and within a year you’re lifting once a month, and in that first year you’ve added 50kg to your DL. And because the DL-only should be easier recovery-wise than trying to recover from 10 exercises, maybe you can maintain that once a month progressive pattern for the next 4 years. That’s 48 more workouts wherein you add 5kgs each month. At the end of 5 yrs you’ve added roughly 290kgs to your deadlift…that’s over 630 lbs to whatever you can already do.

    But what if it takes 10 yrs to accomplish that instead of just 5 yrs? You unhappy? Maybe you then (in my 10 year example) weigh 185 solid pounds. You won’t win Mr O but you’re strong as hell, solid and decently sized.

    You’ll never know unless you get started and be patient and realistic with the expected strength & weight gains.

  228. Donnie Hunt at #

    I’m really enjoying the outside of the box thinking and actions here guys. Great stuff!

  229. Werewolf at #

    Is it OK that I train only one exercise “the deadlift” SCT style?

  230. Werewolf at #

    I intend to do deadlift only SCT-style once I start training again. Is this wise?
    How often do you think I should start training?

  231. Werewolf at #

    I trained once every 24 days lastly I trained should I begin my DL-training every 24 days?

  232. Werewolf at #

    Will I gain more strenght and size from a Deadlift only training compared to a combined Deadlift and benchpress training.

  233. Werewolf at #

    Should I do 5 seconds rep/sets or the one described in my SCT training book i.e. 5-15 seconds? I think I should do the 5-15 seconds since that is described in my SCT training book (I am used to that)

  234. Werewolf at #

    I am eager to start SCT DEADLIFT training. Can I start training already even if I have not rested 90 days?

  235. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    Personally, I think the DL & bench routine is better, here’s why. When Mark mentioned the value of the “health-lift”, I know where he got that comment…an old Earle Liederman book called “Secrets of Strength”. The author talked about this oldimer from the civil war era who did only the health-lift with enormous.poundages every day…1000-1200 pounds regularly and 1500 once to settle an argument. Apparently this old guy was amazingly well built, powerful, etc. But the last line of the paragraph relating this story was this…”and not withstanding his ability to lift enormous weights from the ground he could not lift big dumbbells overhead.” (pg 82 in my old, old copy).

    Something else…back in 1986 Arthur Jones wrote about some testing he’d done and that people basically broke out into 2 types: general and specific responders. The general people got better carryover (ex a good DLer would be a pretty decent bencher) whereas the specific responders did not get much carry over ( a good DLer but sucks at the bench if he didn’t work it). Not a great summary of his 28 page article but it works. One other thing, the percentages were 72% specific and 28% general (from memory so I could be off a bit).

    So, for most of us, we’d benefit from doing both. And given the length of a SCT session even if you’re doing the beta version (4 sets of 5 second holds within 2 minutes)…you’re only adding 2 minutes to the exercise session every 7, 10, 13, 17, 21 days or however long your recovery cycle is!

    I would also do the 5 second hold instead of the 5-15 second . Look, Pete does all these studies/experiments and he generates reports and book updates based on all this data he culls through. His data collection tells hims that a longer hold is ridiculously less intense than the shorter 5 sec hold. From his SCT perspective that’s the “state of the art” answer right now! Why in the world would you do something less effective/intense??

    My answer to your question, “I am eager to start SCT DEADLIFT training. Can I start training already even if I have not rested 90 days?” is this. What was your last DL weight and for how many seconds? Let’s pretend it’s 135Kg and you did it for 18 seconds 29 days ago (I’m making this stuff up but you get the idea, right?). So along with your 115 kg x 5 sec hold bench attempt you’ll also try a 140 kg DL for 5 seconds. Then you’ll take 7 days off and try 120 & 145 kg etc. Feel free to add more time off when you think it’ll help (remember this is part art in addition to the science).

    Then post your numbers, times and the date right here!

    BTW – the Jones article is called “Exercise…’86: The Present State of the Art”

  236. Werewolf at #

    Do biceps, lats… get training from SCT deadlift and SCT benchpress?

  237. Werewolf at #

    You wrote:
    So, for most of us, we’d benefit from doing both. And given the length of a SCT session even if you’re doing the beta version (4 sets of 5 second holds within 2 minutes)…you’re only adding 2 minutes to the exercise session every 7, 10, 13, 17, 21 days or however long your recovery cycle is!

    I am not sure what ^ meant. Would it not be 2 sets of 5 second holds (one DL and one benchpress).

    2 minutes is to short for me to shift from DL and BP in a power rack.

    How am I adding 2 minutes to the exercise session every 7, 10, 13, 17, 21 days or however long your recovery cycle is!

    My last deadlift (before 90 day rest) was 95 kg x 13 seconds
    My last benchpress (before 90 day rest) was 110 kg x 20 seconds

    I was doing one workout per 26 (I am not sure) days when I overtrained.

    I have understood that as long as you keep training to highest 5 seconds you have progressed.

  238. Werewolf at #

    Can I do DL one workout and next workout Benchpress or should both be at same workout? I find I will be most fresh for each exercise that way.

  239. Werewolf at #

    You said one should do 5 second hold. What does that mean? When should one increase weight and when should one decrease weight?

  240. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Actually Jim I got the term “HealthLift” from a fair amount of research on exercise in the late 1800’s. A doctor named Ford wrote an excellent book on it. I can send you a pdf copy of it.

  241. William at #

    @ Jim and Mark, great input. Btw, Mark, would also be interested in that pdf ebook on the “HealthLift” anf Dr. Ford..

  242. Werewolf at #

    Which is better for building muscle, strengthening muscle as fast as possible?
    DL or DL and BP?

  243. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    I apologize for the confusion with the 2 minutes. In the latest SCT ebook Pete offers two programs…I do the second one which is called the beta and involves doing four sets of 5 second holds within 2 minutes. I can’t shift from DL to bench in 2 minutes either…it takes me 2 minutes to get out of the lifting belt and those 1-ton hooks 🙂

    Here’s what you do:

    1. Go DL 100kg x 5 second hold
    2. Take as long as you need to switch to the bench press
    3. Bench press 115kg x 5 second hold

    Assuming you get those weights AND the 5 second hold come back 7-10 days later and do:

    1. Go DL 105kg x 5 second hold
    2. Take as long as you need to switch to the bench press
    3. Bench press 120kg x 5 second hold

    Assuming you get those weights AND the 5 second hold come back 7-10 days later and do:

    1. Go DL 110kg x 5 second hold
    2. Take as long as you need to switch to the bench press
    3. Bench press 125kg x 5 second hold

    Somewhere, sometime you’ll have to add more recovery time. Just do…no need to anguish over it. Add a few extra days when needed and get on with it. Wash, rinse, repeat for 5-10 years. You’ll be fine.

  244. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Mark,

    I’d love to see the pdf on the healthlift! Thought for sure I nailed your reference on that story. I first heard the term while reading Pavel’s Power to the People and followed it back to the Liederman book.

    Pete – Not looking to run afoul of this website’s rules…is it OK to post my email address in order to get the pdf?

    JIm

  245. Werewolf at #

    I think I can train earlier since I believe I am only slightly overtrained, I reviewed my training pappers and saw that I was only overtrained in some exercises. I intend to start SCT train and see if I progress. If I progress I am no longer overtrained. If I am overtrained I can start resting knowing I am really overtrained.
    Is the deadlift and bench press enough to train entire body? How about deadlift alone is it enough to train entire body?

    I need to know what is meant with a 5 second hold.

  246. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    Is the deadlift and bench press enough to train the entire body? Yes. And it’s way good enough for a guy who appears to have had trouble with overtraining and getting weaker in the past.

    5 second hold means:

    DL – lift bar 2-3 inches off the rack (about mid-thigh for me). Hold it right there without moving…for 5 seconds!

    Bench press – press bar off the rack but don’t lock out the elbows (for me, it turns out to be about a 1 inch lift due to rack height and arm length) . Hold it right there without moving…for 5 seconds!

    If you get the full 5 seconds, great!! Next time (7-10 days later) add a bit of weight and try again. If you can only make 3 seconds, wait (for now) 7-10 days and shoot for 5 seconds with the previous weight.

    I know these little weight additions don’t seem all that motivating when you read about Mark doing his 565 lb DL for 40 reps in 1:00 or some of the SCT weights mentioned in older articles/comments. But here’s the thing, you have a relatively current DL of 95Kg x 13 seconds. Your body is NOT ready for a 300kg DL!!! The only way to get there is to build up your body and you do that by putting together 10, 30, 40, 80 workouts, appropriately spaced for full recovery, with small increases in weight. Trust me on this…it adds up! Even if you only added 2.5 kg each time…hell after 80 workouts you increased the weight on the bar by 200 kg (440 lb)

    Assuming that would happen your 80th workout would be:

    DL – 295 kg (649 lb)
    Bench – 310 kg (682 lb)

    Man if you get to those weights in 3-5 years (hell in 10 yrs) without an injury, you should pay for Pete’s kids to get through college!!

    Stop asking questions and go lift something…and post it.

  247. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Jim makes a great point re: individuality. I’ve learned through mistakes my body seems to respond best by BIG jumps in weight w/ L-O-N-G rest periods between w/outs. I used 565lbs last w/out & am going to try to use 625lbs next w/out. I should add the actual weight on the bar is really meaningless. Its the total amount of work (reps) successfully completed w/in a unit of time (mins). Hence, lbs/min aka PF. I already know for me to complete 25 reps w/ 625lbs in less than :55 seconds is working at as fast a rate is realistically possible for me. I could go lighter (e.g., -600lbs) & speed up the reps but my total lbs/min would be less since I’d be using less weight on the bar. Conversely I could go heavier (e.g., 650+lbs) and slow down my reps but that obviously would reduce my lbs/min. As Pete says the “sweet spot” is a moving target. Each w/out is an experiment into itself.

    Nobody & I mean NOBODY in the strength training world uses any formulas which a person can easily use to evaluate his completed w/out and aim for future one w/ that kind of precision. Hence, Precision Training.

  248. Werewolf at #

    I will start where I ended last time I trained with 24 rest days.
    I will do this Sunday 8th May.

  249. Werewolf at #

    I have heard that SCT was safe from injuries but you wrote as if it was likely when having trained a “long” time

  250. Werewolf at #

    You wrote “If you can only make 3 seconds, wait (for now) 7-10 days and shoot for 5 seconds with the previous weight.” . I didn’t understand this, it is different from the methodology of the SCT book I have.
    Could you please explain.

  251. Werewolf at #

    Do I do both again even if you only fail to progress during one of the exercises or do I the non-progressive alone or how do you do?

  252. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    In the SCT paperback I have, I recall the standard was 5-15 seconds…when you held a weight for 15 seconds that meant you increase weight next time around. That next time you might only get 4 seconds. You then shoot for 8 sec, or 12 or 15 seconds the time after that. Once you get 15 seconds (back then)…you added weight.

    So the answer I gave in the last reply is somewhat different than the older SCT instruction of 5-15. Now Pete says 5 seconds. If you get the full 5 seconds add weight the next training session. If you don’t get the full 5 seconds, try the same weight again next session. Examples:

    May 8 – DL 100 kg x 5 sec (success)
    May 18 – DL 105 kg x 3 sec (not quite…re-try next time)
    May 28 – DL 105 kg x 5 sec (success)
    Jun 8 – DL 110 kg x 5 sec (success)

    Injury potential is part of any lifting. Let’s say you go out on May 8 and try to DL with 260 kg and you round the hell out of your back and fail to keep your stomach tight and then slouch your back to let the weight down. You could have all kinds of injuries…not from the SCT protocol, but because your DL form sucked and the weight was way too heavy for you. I do the SCT instead of the PFT because I mentioned being a motor moron with higher reps. I have a lot of difficulty maintaining all the form requirements when I’m racing the clock in PFT. I don’t have that issue when doing SCT because every movement is more deliberate and controlled. It’s not Pete’s fault I lose control/concentration with higher reps…instead he’s provided an alternative method for me!

    If the DL doesn’t make 5 seconds and the Bench does…I’d re-try the DL weight next time and add a little more to the Bench.

  253. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Jim,
    I uploaded the Healthlift book to my DRIVE account. You can DL it there >

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_fqeLFCuhLrNGR3SUlVeks1amM/view?usp=sharing

  254. JimJohann Jr at #

    Mark,

    Appreciate the healthlift download! Can’t wait to read it. The book itself reminds me of the Blaickie book on how to get and stay strong.

    Jim

  255. Werewolf at #

    Is it OK if I rest more off the exercise I failed to progress. I did it with 5-15 seconds SCT. I get it with that methodology. So with the principles of 5-15 seconds when do I add weight and when do I add rest time in the adapted 5 seconds rep/set.

  256. Werewolf at #

    Is it OK if I rest more off the exercise when I failed to progress. I did it with 5-15 seconds SCT. I get it with that methodology. So with the principles of 5-15 seconds when do I add weight and when do I add rest time in the adapted 5 seconds rep/set.

  257. Werewolf at #

    (continue) When I progress I add weight when I fail to progress I add rest between all workouts?

  258. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Weill Jim what the book does prove is as far back as 1876 when the book was published it was widely known w/in medical circles that one HEAVY exercise is capable of outperforming a # of much lighter exercises. One guy lists a 6inch chest increase in just a few months. Even then & oddly coincidentally same as the Nautilus machines fate once the public found out big physical changes required heavy weights and is hard as f’in hell they quickly move on to easier solutions to they’re goals. There were dudes back then regularly lifting over 2,000lbs for less than an inch producing god awfully huge increases in muscular size & strength.

  259. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    Man you’re killing me! You spend way too much time thinking/worrying/fretting about when you’ll fail. Start spending the majority of your time thinking about success! Getting stronger should be exciting, joyful, something you just can’t to do because you love it so much!

    I’ve completed 17 Sisco -style workouts…first 11 were PFT and the last 6 were SCT. There’s been no failure (though there was a misloaded BB that reduced my success…if you can’t add correctly you deserve some lessening of results). I NEVER think about failing, I’m completely locked on getting my next DL or shrug or bench weight for the beta protocol! If and I really mean if failure comes, I’ll deal with it then. But until it comes, I’m too busy planning to be successful at this SCT stuff.

    As far as adding rest, I’ve been lifting for 40+ years, I KNOW when I’m not ready to give it my best. Sometimes its a bad day at work, or other “life” things get in the way. So you take a couple extra days…big deal. The only person in this world who gives a rat’s ass about my workout progression is me! But I don’t ever try to go backward by thinking, yeah I’ve been doing 7 days rest in between workouts for 5 sessions now and I think I’m ready to go back to M-W-F!

    If your numbers are stuck and backsliding add more rest. Personally, I have enough experience that I can avoid those stuck/backsliding sessions, by pre-empting them with an extra couple days off.

    Other than doing the ESG program with Pete’s supervision (he has some formulas/info that isn’t published), I cannot make it any simpler than that. Shoot for success each time and deal with failure if it shows up.

    Final thought – screw waiting until May 8…go get some positive action in your lifting today! Erase thsoe failure doubts today!

  260. Werewolf at #

    How do DL and BP train for example biceps, forearms, lats etc.?

  261. Werewolf at #

    Is it OK if I rest more off the exercise when I failed to progress. I did it with 5-15 seconds SCT. I get it with that methodology. So with the principles of 5-15 seconds when do I add weight and when do I add rest time in the adapted 5 seconds rep/set. When I progress I add weight when I fail to progress I add rest between all workouts?

    I need to know so I understand what I am doing.

  262. Werewolf at #

    What if you fail to progress during e.g. 2 or 3 workouts, perhaps one or two exercises, what do you do then?

  263. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Mark,

    You bring up a good point about the old health-lift (I’ve always called it the hand & thigh lift) and the Nautilus people. In fact, over the years of reading the superslow, Baye, BBS and others, I think the biggest mistake they all make in their application of HIT, is they have almost completely forgotten how strong Casey Viator and Ray Mentzer were!! I read them and enjoy much of their material because much like Pete they emphasize adequate rest & recovery. But unlike Pete, they don’t seem to place much emphasis on adding weight to the bar. Others emphasize adding weight (Westside and other powerlifters) but there are other aspects of their approach (drugs, hours and hours of workouts, etc) that doesn’t appeal to this near 56 yr old.

    One point I’ve seen Pete mention more than once is how increased weight trumps more reps. I’m pretty sure he has worked out some unpublished algorithm for this…which if I had to guess is part of his ESG magic!

    I bring this up because I was thinking about your comment of the sweet spot from 600 doing more reps upto 650 with fewer reps in your :55 timeframe. I love playing with the PF math and here’s what I came up with:

    600 x 26 reps in :55 = 625 x 25 in :55 = 650 x 24 reps in :55…from a power factor/total weight perspective. I’m assuming you’ve discovered that it doesn’t work out quite so linearly for you? I admit to having some jealously with your ability to make the big jumps with the long break periods. As I mentioned I use the beta SCT in part for motor control reasons…even with 7-8 days in between workouts my first 5 second hold really feels uncoordinated/ricketty…not terribly strong at all. As you said…individual differences!

  264. Werewolf at #

    According to SCT you should increase 3 rest days every time you fail to progress and keep it every workout til you need even more rest. Then use that rest period etc.
    Is that not right?

  265. Werewolf at #

    (continue) Should that be used?

  266. William at #

    Mark,

    Also appreciate the healthlift download! Looking forward to reading it. Agree with Jim, it reminds me of the Blaickie books regarding getting strong.

    William

  267. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Jim
    I want to be clear I am not in any way posting my poundages or performances to boast or brag. I trained for 10+ yrs making (0) progress constantly chronically overtraining preventing any growth. I’m not try to see just how long I can rest I’m trying to see how “little” rest my body requires. Right now its around what I suspect to be eight damn months which is IMO a LOOOONG recovery. But if I am correct & I certainly should be I’ll be rewarded w/ another 7-10lbs of lbm from a single heavy as hell 600+lb DL only w/out. All thanks to Pete & PFT. Sorry to sound like an asskiss but I tried & tried everything from drugs which almost killed me w/ over 20 blood clots in my right leg to wasting tons of $$ on bullshit supplements which did nothing.

  268. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Hey Mark,

    I for one appreciate the listing of poundages and get that it isn’t bragging. I too think Pete’s contributions are enormous but for different reasons. I’ve always gotten reasonable results from my training but what I never seemed to be able avoid was injury. Never anything earth-shaking (broken backs, major pec tears, blown out knees) but annoying things which would eventaully lead to training stoppages. Shoulders always felt sore, lower back was sore and stiff and knees will never be 100%. But if I use Pete’s material (mainly partial range exercise ROM) and extended/variable rest & recovery…all that crap goes away. After years of feeling “dinged up”, now I don’t and that’s worth a great deal to me. Additionally with the partial range exercise, I get to use heavy, satisfying weights for me.

    Now the weight part you have to realize it is a leverage lift and that kinda makes comparison with others difficult (if you’re into that). My DL hold maybe more or less upright than someone else. He may do the DL real close to lockout or at lockout. Maybe one guy does thm with straps and another does them with those hooks. Or DLs are the 5th exercise or the first. Who cares about all that?? Are you personally getting stronger than you were the last time you did this sequence of exercise? Not, did it feel heavy, or you felt tired or strong…but can you actually measure it and know it!

    And Pete’s genius seems to be in understanding that his material has a particular appeal to older guys (mostly). I know some folks here are going to be worried about their biceps or or the upper, inner third of their triceps, or whether they’ll get the fullest, most muscular build…ugh! And there are people out there who cease their PFT/SCT because they think it won’t get them to Flex/M&F level. But if you’re some skinny dude who has never had much luck with results, why not forget all that subjective crap and get busy getting yourself strong. I will never be able to out-pull Andy Bolton (1008 lb DL from the ground without straps) by using PFT/SCT! Then again there isn’t a single method in the world that would make that possible…and I’m OK with that!

    I still can’t wait to hit those next SCT DL and bench goals next week!!

  269. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Really? Hmmmm cuz I’ve had just the opposite problem. No results but never one single injury besides worn out knees from overuse. I even thought I tore my Vastus Medalis one time when I heard & felt it “POP” around my knee joint back into place. Scared the sh%$ outta me but never gave me one bit of trouble ever.

  270. Werewolf at #

    Is deadlift alone or deadlift with benchpress best?

  271. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    Let’s try a different approach to answer the question, “Is deadlift alone or deadlift with benchpress best?”

    Let’s pretend Mark says, “DL alone”
    Pretend I say “DL with the bench press is best”

    Now what’s wolf gonna do?? Or this…which is an even better question, “What’s wolf think?”

    What if Mark and I both have really good reasons for our belief? In either case, then you’re likely to ask, ” how do these work the biceps, forearms or calves or lats?”

    But here’s the key thing…none of this information is really going to help wolf. Why?

    Because he NEVER actually lifts anything!! It’s all keyboarding. Look Pete has provided a basic template that everyone of us is free to follow in its entirety or modify as we see fit. There are no “best” answers because there are too many factors to blindly answer. But here’s one unassailable, unchallengeable fact…if you don’t start lifting some iron, you won’t get stronger.

    Here’s something really funny…what if Mark and I are best friends in 9th grade? And between us we weigh 235 lbs and like messin’ with people on the internet??

    Get your DL to 600-700 lb and your bench to 500lb…then ask about your biceps and forearms.

  272. Werewolf at #

    I count seconds without a clock or watch. Do you have other method?

  273. Werewolf at #

    I am going to train on this Sunday at evening/night since I am free to train then. I am free practically every evening/night.

  274. Werewolf at #

    That sounds like a night mare if you should only be messing with people.

  275. Donnie Hunt at #

    @Werewolf,

    I find it very helpful for myself to have someone else count my reps and or TUT. I find counting myself of having to mess with looking at a timer during an exercise quite distracting from the primary objective of intensely contracting my muscles. This may or may not be an issue for you.
    To echo Jim. Start somewhere. You gotta lift sometime. This stuff is very interesting to read about, lots of fun I know. But you have to “stimulate” then recover.

  276. Just to add a quick input. Suppose I could tell you (Werewolf) that a massive, long term, $50-million study had been completed with 10,000 men your age and the results were: 73% did better with one exercise and 27% did better with two exercises. Where would that leave you? You still don’t know which group would be more like you. And you’re right back to: pick one and see how it goes!

    This is why empirical, objective measurements are what cuts through all the hype, BS, opinions, and hypotheses. Measure your output per minute and keep records of your progress. Over time you’ll find tweaks that improve your performance and mistakes that cost you power. Nobody can do this for you, just go to the gym and start hoisting the heaviest iron you can under the safest conditions possible. (Strong range in a power rack or Smith machine.) You won’t be “perfect” on every attempt. Nobody is, because it’s impossible to know how high “up” is on any given Tuesday for you. Just do your best and keep records.

  277. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Pete has spoken!

    Wolf Pete’s words, even if you find someone who has his knowledge which you won’t, is worth it’s weight in gold. 20yrs ago when PFT first hit the market you couldn’t have afforded what Pete knows. Then just like every effective innovation in bb’ing the public finds out the new incredibly productive method is also a much more incredibly more painful method and they replace intensity w/ volume and F*ck that up too blaming the system & it’s developer. The public is 95% total goddam idiots who couldn’t find they’re own ass w/ map & an indian guide leading them by the goddam hand!

    There is no one & I mean NO ONE whose knowledge eclipses his, not even Arthur Jones. Odd how he basically echoed what we’ve been telling you. Find your baseline, get some rest, then begin. As Pete & I & everyone else has repeatedly told you no one can do it for you. You have to find what works for you. Unless you fly to Thailand and find Pete then beg & bribe him to train you. I doubt he would as he’s just like Arthur Jones and ended up dropping damn near all association w/ anything as f&*cked up as bodybuilding.

  278. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    Now you have it from SCT/PFT founder himself…even he can’t answer the which is better question. But he did give you two keys:

    1. Hoist something really heavy (safely)
    2. Record the numbers because they are the only thing you need to know to progress

    As long as you’re doing both of those and taking care of your rest/recovery periods…EXPECT success! And here’s the best part of it…these 3 things are all within your control! Think about that a second.

    You cannot control the length of your muscles, your neurological efficiency, your rate of recovery, whether you’re an ecto or mesomorph. So whether you have high peaked biceps like Arnie or short, flat ones…you hav eno control over those things.

    But these 3 things are all within your control! Man…it doen’t get any better than that!

  279. Werewolf at #

    I’ve got the flu and don’t know if I can train.

  280. Werewolf at #

    My original correct weight:
    Deadlift 200 kg X 13 sec
    Bench press 230 kg X 20 sec.

    The weights I gave you was only of weight on one side of barbell. So I am stronger than I thought.

    I could not progress with my new workout. I could could not even budge the barbell.
    What to do?

  281. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Wolf
    Bro for the last damn time > Contact Pete & see if he’ll take you on as a client. Get state of the art training info for less than you’d paid some local idiot who knows something less than nothing. The first he’s gonna suggest is to sit on your ass for 90 days. After that only he knows.

  282. Werewolf at #

    My barbell without any weight weighs approximately 10 kg.

  283. Werewolf at #

    Where do I ask Sisco if he can have me as client?

  284. Werewolf at #

    Mark William Winchester Sr. at #
    Wolf
    Bro for the last damn time > Contact Pete & see if he’ll take you on as a client.

    Werewolf#
    You haven’t before told me to contact Pete & see if he’ll take me on as client.

  285. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    http://www.precisiontraining.com/talk-pete/

    Wolf,
    For $50 measly pissant bucks you get 30mins of one on one w/ Pete. Considering his knowledge which is comparable to speaking w/ Arthur Jones (RIP). That is a the bargain of a lifetime for someone like you. Pete should charge as much as idiots like Charles Glass or Dennis James which is thousands of dollars for worthless advice.

  286. Werewolf at #

    Is it so that someone who trains with heavy weights as long as I have no longer can gain muscle and strenght (progress) and loses muscle gains?

  287. Werewolf at #

    I mean training SCT Sisco style.

  288. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolf,

    Sorry to hear about the workout results…BUT, here’s what you can take away from this: your statement:

    My original correct weight:
    Deadlift 200 kg X 13 sec
    Bench press 230 kg X 20 sec.

    Isn’t true any longer…especially if you couldn’t even budge them. So at the very least, you know your workout numbers need to be lower than these. No big deal it still gives you a starting place. Pete talks about the zero workout where you experiment to get the right weight and don’t really worry too much about it. So you could try:

    DL – 150kg, then try 160…maybe you get to 180kg but you know that’s it. Next workout start with 185kg and begin yout training. What if you can’t even get 150? Try 125kg, then 130. You gotta figure out a starting point.

    Don’t be afraid to take weight off sometime, especially if its been awhile. I’d mentioned in one of my early posts that back in 2001 or so I did hundreds of singles with a 2″ thick non-revolving bar with 600-800 pounds. I even managed 905 on an olympic bar (no straps…that was like wrestling a mountain lion 🙂 But when I decided to get back into the PFT/SCT game…no way I was going to go that heavy right out of the gate. Every muscle, tendon, ligament etc all needed to be trained up for that kind of weight.

    I also like Mark’s advice about getting the Pete phone call or even joining his ESG deal.

    But there is the issue of individuality. I stand in awe of Mark’s ability to take 6 months off and come back and progress. He must have some pretty decent motor skills/coordination because I think part of my 1st set of the SCT beta version has to do with poor motor skills and that’s why my 1st set (of 4 per exercise) always feel so crappy. In really non-scientific terms it feels like I’ve forgotten how to do the movements smoothly and correctly. So I adjust by doing the beta version instead of the 1 set SCT. But I’m not Mark and likely you aren’t either…so we have to adjust. Part of it for me is that unlike Mark, I really love doing SCT overhead presses and shrugs!

    You just have to accept the individual differences and work around it.

  289. Werewolf at #

    Before overtraining, my original correct weight was:
    Deadlift 200 kg X 13 sec
    Bench press 230 kg X 20 sec.

  290. Werewolf at #

    What if I find the correct weight for me now, it will be less than last progressive workouts. It seems as if my top weights before overtraining cannot be surpassed. What to do?
    I want to progress more than before overtraining.

  291. Werewolf at #

    Why did I not get stronger?

  292. Werewolf at #

    I have barbell collars that weight approximately 1 kg together.

  293. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Because your not recovered.

  294. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Jim,
    I don’t wanna “awe” you 2 much but I ain’t lifting any weights until August 15th which will end up being 7months of rest & if I can convince myself I’m going to wait until Sept 15th if I can. Usually the temptation gets more than I can handle. I plan on adding 75lbs to the bar of what I used last w/out. Although * that in & of itself is again really meaningless. Its’ about amount of work (reps) divided into the unit of time it takes to perform that work.

    After that big jump I”m sure I’ll have to extend my rest to definitely nine if not ten months so I’ll be able to add another 10% to PF. And so on & so on,

  295. Mark William Winchester Sr. at #

    Jim,
    I think you & I are simply polar opposite. You definitely have a much higher % of slow twitch fibers in the muscles you were citing & need several work-up sets to get to your peak weight whereas I can only sustain a high level of performance for a few seconds but I need (0) warmup. As long as I’m rested (6+ months) The only warmup I ever use is loading the plates on the bar then – BOOM – I do it. And now that I have (10) 100lb plates I usually gradually load a couple of plates per day 2wks prior to my w/out so I can just hook on & lift on w/out day. No warmup whatsoever. But I never lift for more than :54 seconds EVER! And thats it for another 6-8 months.

  296. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Mark,

    Too late man… the growth of awe continues unabated!

    You’re probably right about the polar opposite observation and the slow twitch deal! I’ve always been aware of my 1RM only being a tad higher than my sets of triples (pre-SCT/PFT). I’ve worked with guys who can do sets of 3 or 5s and their 1RM would be 50 lbs higher while mine would be a solid 10 lb more!

    But I think the lesson in all this is applying/modifying Pete’s template, whether SCT or PFT to best fit yourself. Of course that involves experimenting, failing, and certainly doesn’t lend itself to the cookie-cutter one size fits all approach.

    I figure that in 4-6 months I’ll be hitting 600 on my beta version SCT DL will will entail switching to my 2″ thick non-revolving bar. My current bar is this 6 foot 1″ non-revolving bar and 550 is probably it’s limit. If I didn’t already have 1200 lbs or so of standard plates (not an olympic plate in sight of my basement), I’d probably jump on the hex bar you’ve mentioned!

    BTW – wanted to thank you again for the Health-lift book. I just love those fitness books from the 1800s! And since you obviously know how to use google-books…there is a companion book (kind of) to it. Look up “Butler’s System of Physical Training”…published in 1868. A really good read!

  297. Werewolf at #

    Sisco since you are one if not the only one authority can you tell me what to do about my situation?

  298. To be honest, I’m starting to think you’re trolling everyone here. You’ve received plenty of good advice from people generous enough to help you. It looks like you never actually lift weights and just work a keyboard. I think you’d have better success somewhere else. You’re welcome to try the advice you’ve received here but I don’t really want you as a customer. In my view you’re either a troll or you are helpless beyond my abilities to rehabilitate your self-confidence or decision-making skills. I’d prefer you became someone else’s customer.

  299. Werewolf at #

    I mean in SCT.

  300. Werewolf at #

    Hi mr. Sisco,
    Could you please help even if you don’t want me as client, out of the goodness in your heart: please tell me what to do to lift higher than before and how to keep progressing.

    🙂

  301. Werewolf at #

    I am gratefull for all helpful data I have received from this site.

  302. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Mark et al.,

    Here’s an example of the motor control issue. Because of the recent cortisone shot I had 20 days off in between DL/Bench days. Additionally, I wanted to ensure there were no elbow problems, so for the DL, I actually performed 2 warm ups singles with 310 and 410. Then jumped to the 4 beta sets (of 5 sec holds) with 470. Everything felt great if not heavy which is as it should be!

    But the Bench sets (without warm ups), another story. The 1st set was set to 390 (a 20lbs increase) and while I got it off the rack, that rascal was acting like it was on ice skates! My hands actually described some oval-ish path before I could get that thing centered. The next 3 beta sets were pristine and strong, but that first one…all the more reason we always use power racks with partial range reps!!

    But, that is the beauty of the SCT/PFT in that there is ample room for modification to fit the individual. Uncritical, unthinking weight training just wouldn’t be terribly satisfying and would likely lead to injury.

  303. Werewolf at #

    Hi,
    although Sisco would not take me as client can I still still ask questions on this site and describe how my training goes on this site?

  304. progressivestrength at #

    Great website. I’ve been reading over the articles and comments. Avoiding the weaker parts of the ranges of motion makes a great deal of sense. Focusing on progressive overload and output. Not using some cookie cutter recommendation for recovery time. The only questions I believe I have and I may have missed the answers or not read yet? Is there a difference, stimulus wise, to the strongest range statics vs. the strongest range reps? Is this just a preference thing? Or something else?

  305. Werewolf at #

    According to “the theory of 5 sec” does it mean if you manage 5 seconds or higher you have progressed (increase weight) and that if you can’t reach 5 seconds you have failed (and thus do your previous heaviest successful)

    Is that correct?

  306. Werewolf at #

    According to “the theory of 5 sec” does it mean if you manage 5 seconds or higher you have progressed (increase weight) and that if you can’t reach 5 seconds you have failed (and thus do your previous maximum weight).

    It is not necessarily exactly 5 seconds but above also for progressing

  307. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    OK Wolf, Heres’ my deal…I will gladly answer one question for every wrokout you post on this website! Here’s the last freebie.

    With the 5 sec “rule” if you can do a weight for 5 seconds or higher, you have been fully successful and the next time you lift you need a heavier weight.

    If you don’t make the 5 seconds, what value would there be in going back to your last successful weight? How would that be progressive? I say come back in a week or two (or whatever your interval is; mine is 7-8 days, Mark’s is 7 months) and try the weight you missed. Now here’s where it gets tricky.

    Say you were successful with 200 DL for 5 seconds last week but missed this week with 300 DL. Maybe the trick would be to try 225 the next time or even 215. But NEVER 200 again. You could try the 300 DL but I’m not a huge fan of those kinds of jumps…particularly for a guy with overtraining and getting weaker issues.

    So there’s the one answer. Post your weekend workout if you want another question answered.

  308. It’s mostly preference. Not only for the movement itself, but also for the people who prefer more/less volume. Nothing is more efficient than SC, but it looks like PF can build more mass faster.

  309. progressivestrength at #

    Thank you Pete.

    I like the layout of this site.

    Any thoughts on why still having some movement contributes more to mass?

  310. I said more mass faster. And you have to be careful on how you generalize that.
    It does NOT necessarily mean:
    – more mass ultimately
    – that movement necessarily plays any role
    – that volume necessarily plays any role
    It could be 1, 2, or 3 of those. Or not. It takes a lot of study with a lot of people to know these things with any certainty. And in the end, we always get back to the issue of “most” people having a “tendency” to do better with one method or another. I like to remind people that penicillin is great for most folks, but literally kills others. So finding absolutes in exercise is very difficult. (Which is why I rely on physics so much. Lifting 1,000 lbs in 1 min is always better than lifting 900 lbs in 1 min.)

  311. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Pete’s comment made me think of something that might explain the difference between the SCT & PFT from the mass building perspective.

    Someone performing a beta version of the DL with 470 is actually lifting the weight 4 times in 2mins. Someone else might perform the same DL with 470 but in the PFT style, may lift it 40 times in 1 min. Though I have no formula for comparing the SCT holding time to the PFT lowering times, I can compare what each person lifted!

    With the SCT you’ve lifted 1880 (in 2 mins) and with the PFT you’ve lifted 18,800 (in 1 min). Furthermore, adjusted for a same length of time, The SCT person only lifted 940 lbs in 1 minute vs the PFT person’s 18,800! In both comparisons the PFT person “lifted” a lot more weight per time (lifted being the actual raising not the holding or lowering) than the SCT person. I know the PF/PI formulas don’t apply to the SCT, nonetheless, this makes me wonder.

    Now I’m only a sample of 1, so you cannot generalize just from me, but I have always found getting tha bar off the rack whether for DL, bench, OH press etc is by far the hardest part of the lift…certainly harder than holding or lowering. And this is irrespective of doing 4 beta sets versus just one single SCT set. I think this makes sense since of the 3 types of strength, lifting is the weakest.

    It seems obvious to me that PFT is more demanding…but not necessarily better. For those trying desperately to put on some mass, it would seem to be the better answer. And a lot of reps with the fork don’t hurt either 🙂

  312. What makes the issue more complicated is that a guy who can hoist 470 for 40 reps can probably do a static hold for 5 seconds with 550-600+. And there seems to be a logarithmic benefit of more weight. That is, one rep with 600 does more for growth than 2 reps with 300. It’s a fairly simple matter to discover what “works” but it’s really difficult to say what works “best.” And there’s that penicillin issue again where what works best for a lot of people is still not best for everyone.

  313. Jim Johann Jr at #

    I see your point on the PFT guy having a higher SCT weight which makes sense; if I could lift 470 40-some times in a 60 second period then it would be too light for 4 lift & holds over 2 minutes. And I agree with there being a bigger benefit in more weight, but your example is too easy. Here’s what I really find interesting (mainly because I’m not sure how to quantify and compare):

    Would 600 x 1 be better than 500 x 2? What about 500 x 5? Would 500 x 35 in 60 seconds be better than 600 for 30 singles over a 30 minute period? Now these questions don’t keep me up at night and I don’t expect an answer, but they are intriguing to me. FWIW – my choice on this would the 600 for 30 singles over 30 minutes. And since I’m in a rationalizing mood, you could still keep track of it using PF/PI numbers. The PF would be small, but that brief effort every minute is strong and if using “your” smaller PF numbers you progressed to 1000 lbs for 30 singles over 30 minutes you’d be much stronger than before.

    During my brief stint with the PFT piece, I hated being tied to the PF number because I felt I could do higher weights but not enough times to “progress” when compared to lower weights for many more reps in a given time frame. My last PFT bench was 210 x 93 reps in 1:30 for a 13020 power factor. I think 325 on the bench would be much better, but no way was I going to hit 60 reps with it in 1:30 just to equal the previous PF and total weight. Personally, I think even 325 x 35 reps is better/stronger than 210 x 93 reps, but it has a lower PF number (it could be I just don’t like doing higher reps). But like you’ve said in previous posts…it’s kinda weird because its not like a machine with respect to distance lifted and weight. Something like 400 lbs lifted 1″ is much harder than 100 lbs lifted in the full range.

    My gut tells me somewhere the linear comparison of PF numbers gets skewed with the weight variances, but I have no clue how to determine where that happens nor its degree…so for now I’ll just keep adding weight in small increments.

    Anyway, just the kinds of things that run through my head when I’m home watching a sick kid 🙂

  314. progressivestrength at #

    Pete and Jim,

    Thank you both for all the continued thoughts and information. This is great!

  315. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Well today’s beta SCT workout didn’t go exactly as planned. When I tried to load my bar to the weights for today I ran into the limits of my somewhat-less-than 6 foot long, 1″ diameter bar…I couldn’t load what I needed. My stellar under pressure decision then was to reverse the normal order of DL then bench to bench then DL. And given last time’s runaway bench pathway, I decided a warm up might help. And behold, a warm up of 310 x 3 partial reps helped in spite of the bar issues. Instead of the preplanned 390 (which wouldn’t fit) I said screw it and put on 410 (another 50 fit whereas a 25, 10 & 5 with collars would not). And got 4 sets of 5 sec holds for the beta bench session.

    My DLs were much uglier. 310, 410 x 1 rep warm ups followed by 510…and I could only get 2 sets of 5 second holds. For me the jump felt too big, but another issue came up. I really don’t like the 1-ton hooks. For me they are awkward in the extreme and with the alternate grip (right hand underhand), my right fingers slipped of the hook. And sometimes, when things aren’t going smoothly, it makes sense to stop and reassess…a much preferred option to getting hurt if you ask me.

    So I think for the next session, two points are necessary…extend the rest period to 10-12 days and I’m going to try a pair of ironmind lifting straps with some yoga pad material inserted for a bit more comfort. But even that is a temp solution as my 1″ bar will only work a time or two more. And then I’ll be forced to go to the 2″ thick non-revolving bar I have.

    But that move has its challenges as well. It’s way too big for the hooks, and straps aren’t likely to fit either. I may have to change my rack height a bit and change to more of a Hand & Thigh lift to make this bar work. It’s already occurred to me that my current DL start position doesn’t really meet the “strongest range” definition. And sooner or later, I’m going to have to battle the base gym’s crowd and do some OH pressing, Shrugging on the smith machine and Hammer Rowing.

    When you’ve been lifting for a long time, all these challenges have to be met and overcome. In real life (mine anyway), complete linear progression doesn’t happen all the time. And while I didn’t get exactly the DL progress I was looking for, I did I achieve some partial progress as 510 lbs exceeds my last DL work at 470 lbs. Not perfect nor the preferred progress, but I feel pretty good with today’s effort!

  316. 1. Sounds like a productive workout, despite not being perfect.
    2. Some of your questions are the ones that HAVE kept me up at night. Haha! Short answer, progressive overload from workout to workout and month to month is the real key to all of this. You never really get the satisfaction of knowing what was the “best” way for any individual. Could Michael Phelps have been 1/10th of a second faster if the did this or that differently in the weight room? There’s no way to know. Ever.
    3. Try fiddling with the adjustment of your hooks. I like to start with them too high on my palm and wrist so when they get pulled down by the weight they are in the perfect spot.
    And kudos for keeping records of your workouts. That’s the way into new territory.

  317. Werewolf at #

    I need to know when to increase rest in the 5 second rule. I cannot train if I do not know when. It is imperative for me to know this.

  318. Take your age plus the weight you lifted in troy ounces, divide that by the number in today’s date. That’s the exact rest you need in hours. Unless it’s a Full Moon, then you double it. If you’re left-handed, add 13%. If you’re married, wait for the waxing Quarter Moon after the next Full Moon.

    That will work very well with the weights you’re never actually lifting, Werewolf.

  319. progressivestrength at #

    Progressive overload. Getting stronger and stronger over time. No need to be in a hurry.

    Safe, never any reason to put yourself into weak, vulnerable positions.

    You can work hard AND safe.

    You have to start somewhere. Start with a weight that is challenging then progress. Keep detailed records.

    The beauty of all this in my opinion is that you progress at your own pace and you are following what what physiology requires, not man made “requirements” (full range of motion, set rest days, free weights vs. machines, etc.

    Funny comment as well Pete. 🙂

  320. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Hey ProgressiveStrength!

    In addition to your points…all this can be done with a minimum amount of fretting over the next workout! As Pete said you can never determine the absolute “best” for anyone, including yourself. So we should relax, and train hard and safely.

    I’ve been doing 7-8 days in between, now I’m going to 10-12 days before I DL/bench again. Maybe that’ll work or maybe it’s not going to be enough…either way I’ll learn from it and apply a modification the next time. I even started fiddling with the hooks last night to shorten them up as Pete suggested…I re-direct everyone back to my motor moron comments 🙂 Eventually I did get them shortened somewhat…so we’ll see what happens down the road.

    BTW – I tried the formula and came up with an irrational imaginary number…now I can’t train 🙂
    Stupid math.

  321. progressivestrength at #

    Hey Jim!

    Very positive stuff. Very motivational knowing one doesn’t have to do something dangerous to stay strong and get stronger. So many benefits and life enhancing effects to strength training.
    I love the simplicity of hard, progressive muscular work/output, gradually increasing over time.

  322. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Well my break period after the last partially successful DL/bench session was extended from 7-8 days to a full 12 days and that seemed to do the trick! Tightening the hooks as well as moving my DL grip a bit wider helped with the DL. Part of the problem was with the underhanded right grip the last , the hook started to slip off on the pinkie side of the hook once the fingers slipped off. And as I was setting up I noticed the precarious position of the right hook again and moving it outward helped.

    Net result, I got the 510 lbs for all 4, 5 seconds holds within the 2 minutes (warmed up again with singles of 310 and 410). And unlike the last session, these rep/holds felt really strong and stable. All good stuff!

    The bench was OK. I used 430 and the 1st 3 holds were perfect, but I didn’t have the right balance on the 4th set of holds and my legs/feet came up off the floor and I had to truncate the set at 3 seconds. A bit annoying (but my fault since I persist in using this cheap @$$, short bar) but the strength was improved and I’ll move up the next time.

    Hope everyone’s Memorial Day weekend (for US readers) was enjoyable!

  323. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    While I wrote this, “Part of the problem was with the underhanded right grip the last , the hook started to slip off on the pinkie side of the hook once the fingers slipped off.”

    What I meant to say was the hook itself was starting to slip off the bar from the pinkie side of my right hand after the fingers had slipped off the hook.

    Of course, all of this only magnifies my appreciation for the ridiculous strength of a great DLer like Andy Bolton who has pulled 1008 from the floor! Makes me kinda laugh when I think back to being in my 30’s and pulling 500 lbs on a trap bar DL without straps. Oh well…that’s why the professionals are just different than the rest of us. And certainly as good a reason as any other to NOT attempt to use their methods.

    The good news is we have these program options from Pete which enable us to get the benefits without the 20 hrs/week in the gym, the drugs, the injuries etc. My ultimate goal would be to head to the basement when I’m 95 and get a 365-405 DL off the rack for a couple of reps.

    Longevity is the key!

  324. William at #

    Jim, great post and like your idea on Longevity. Looking forward to hitting the century mark someday and pulling that kind of load then off to eat a hearty breakfast !!

    Also, Happy Memorial Day to all the Vets here and much Appreciate your service!!

  325. James Herried at #

    In this article, Mark Winchester is quoted as saying that it initially made no sense to him to “limit your range of motion” significantly, when doing any weight-lifting exercise.

    But ironically, people in conventional training have been limiting their range of motion for many decades, without even knowing it!

    I’m zeroing in on the “bench press” here; one of the most highly-revered, yet probably the most highly-overrated weight-training exercise there is.

    The truth is, it’s impossible to use a full-range of motion when doing the bench press. In fact, when doing the bench press, your range of motion is so tiny, that it’s akin to doing the biceps curl, and lifting the weight only 2-3 inches, and then lowering it back down to your starting point of zero intensity.

    Now, do you think you’ll build maximum muscle in your biceps by doing the biceps curl like that? No way! Likewise, you won’t build maximum muscle in your chest muscles by doing the bench press that way either. But, that’s the only way you can do the bench press.

    The bench press limits you range of motion significantly, because it prevents you from moving your arms all the way across your chest towards your opposite shoulders. And that’s actually what you’re trying to do, when doing the bench press. It’s basically the same type of motion that you use for the dumbbell flye (which also limits your range of motion), and the double -cable crossover.

    But when doing the bench press, you can get only a fraction of the way across, through your range of motion. So whenever you the bench press, you’re actually doing “partial reps”. And I mean extremely partial reps!

    Now there’s nothing wrong with doing partial reps. In fact, you can build significant amounts of muscle by doing partial reps; if you do them the right way. Power Factor Training is based upon doing partial reps.

    But, if you do partial reps, they should be done in your “strong range” of motion, where you have the greatest amount of dynamic contraction (DC) in the working muscle. That enables you to generate the highest levels of intensity and muscle-growth stimulation, for any amount of weight used.

    Plus, if you do it right, that also enables you to achieve “maximum intensity” in your working muscle; which is impossible to achieve in your weak range of motion, where you have very little dynamic contraction.

    The problem with the bench press is that it limits you to your “weak range” of motion. At least for the type of motion that makes use of your chest muscles. Which means that you can’t achieve maximum intensity in your pectorals when doing the bench press. You can’t even come close. In fact, you can’t even achieve “high” intensity in your pectorals, when doing the bench press; regardless of how much weight you use!

    So the bench press is somewhat of a joke, when it comes to achieving maximum intensity (or even high intensity), and maximum muscle-growth stimulation. And it’s not “the king of chest exercises”, as is so often claimed.

    Fortunately, if big, well-developed chest muscles are what you want, there are much better ways to “pack on the pecs”.

    I’m talking about chest exercises that do enable you to achieve “maximum intensity”, and thus maximum muscle-growth stimulation. And are much safer than the bench press; which requires a reliable spotter.

  326. Hi James. I think the ideal chest exercise machine is yet to be invented. Wrapping your arms around a heavy barrel approximates the movement needed.

  327. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Pete & James,

    Some real thought-provoking ideas here. While I’m enjoying the strong range bench, I don’t believe my chest muscles really get too much out of it. I gave up benching years ago primarily due to shoulder pain, which I don’t get with the SCT sets. And to be honest I enjoy the movement.

    I use to follow some of Steve Justa’s workout ideas and bearhugging a 30 gallon drum filled with dirt, gravel and rocks was fun (not filled to the top to be clear) and that motion did cause the chest muscles to work like crazy and I’d bet a 55 gallon drum would’ve been much more difficult. I’m trying to picture the machine and I’m drawing a blank.

    But the idea of going outside some of the long-time traditional movements might very well be the answer. I suspect that so much of what we do is based on history, tradition, and what worked for the big boys (Doug Hepburn and Rep Park on the bench) that we all subconsciously imitated over the years. Obviously, most of the info came from them via some rather unscientific magazines. Heck…I worked for months on a paper route so I could buy the old Universal Bodybuilding Course…and I thought I had the Holy Grail in my hands when it arrived!

    And tangentially from Pete’s machine comment…has anyone on this website ever looked at or even used the bioDensity machine? I ran across an article and some videos on it a week or so ago and I know the idea of a home-based SCT machine has been talked about for a long time on this website, but nothing firm as far as I can tell. But this bioDensity machine is set up for 4 exercises; chest press, leg press, core pulls (ab exercise, but looks like a pulldown) and a vertical lift (looks like the health lift Mark & I’ve briefly discussed). It’s got computer “stuff” for clients; names, seat positions, makes graphs, times the static hold for 5 secs, graphical & digital resistance numbers etc. Seems like an interesting and likely expensive machine. If you haven’t seen it, go to youtube and search for biodensity exercise machine…it’s worth a look!

    And that’s probably enough from me for the day!

  328. progressivestrength at #

    When you step backtake a look at this whole strength training thing from a built from the ground up perspective, all this makes so much sense.

    Loading the muscles in the safest, and strongest range. Why would you ever not do this? Think long and hard about that one.

    The beauty is you are doing something very safe, very demanding, and you’re able to track your progress very easily.

  329. Werewolf at #

    I train DL and BP.
    I failed again to progress today.
    Last time before not progressing I did: DL 230 kg x 13 seconds.
    BP 230 kg x 20 seconds.
    I decided to experiment with different weights to see how much I could manage now, which was:
    DL 120 kg x 6 seconds.
    BP 130 kg x 5 seconds.
    Should I rest more? I have 27 rest days between all workouts. Any tips on what to do about my lack off progress? I am very much weaker as you see.

    My question: When do you increase rest days with SCT 5 second rule?

  330. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Wolf,

    So you did:
    DL 120 kg x 6 seconds.
    BP 130 kg x 5 seconds

    This is not a fail. The last time you posted anything about an actual workout you tried 200Kg or so and couldn’t even budge the bar. Well, now you’ve budged the bar and have your new working weights. Forget about that 230 kg stuff because for whatever reason…you can’t lift that any more! That’s now one of your “useta’s”…I use ta lift 230 but not any longer.

    My suggestion…take 10-14 days off and try 125 & 135 kgs for 5 seconds. If you only get 3 seconds, take another 10-14 days off and try again.

    All that said…the fact that you’ve lost almost 50% of your strength for some reason is troubling. You’ve lost around 250 lbs of strength in some undefined timeframe (I don’t know when you did 230Kg successfully).

  331. Werewolf at #

    My question: When do you increase rest days with SCT 5 second rule?

    I had a 21 (I think) day interval not 7-10 rest day.

  332. Werewolf at #

    Dear Jim Johann Jr.
    you promised to answer one of my questions when I had worked out and sent the results.

    My question is:
    When do you increase rest days with SCT 5 second rule.

  333. Werewolf at #

    My timeframe I think was 27 rest days.

  334. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    OK Wolf,

    I’m at work but I’ll give your question a shot. From memory (my train smart book is at home), Pete provides a sample of the increasing rest progression for a new trainee and its within the 80s (page numbers) in his ebook. I think he said that within a year or so a person could be at the point of working out monthly:

    Jan – workout A
    Feb – workout B
    Mar – workout A etc.

    He even provided a sample of during the 1st 3 weeks of training you’d workout twice a week then weeks 4-6 once a week etc. But there is no hard and fast rule on when to extend and by how much. Obviously, if your numbers are not improving or going down, you need more rest…but nobody can provide an exact rule that says now go to 8 days of rest or 23.5 days of rest. All of Pete’s suggestions in this part of his ebook are suggested ranges…not absolute dictates.

    Now my thoughts…it doesn’t sound like you’re a beginner, but doing 120-130 kg on the BP & DL hardly sounds like an advanced trainee who is lifting so much weight that 27 days of recovery is required…unless you weigh about 50 kg. That your strength has dropped from 230 kg on those two exercises to 120-130 kg would be a far bigger issue…at least that’s my opinion. Maybe Mark is correct and you need to just take 6 months off from weight training and recover fully…but I don’t know! There’s too many other unknown variables. I cannot say why, but I can say this…that you have lost almost 50% of your strength on the BP/DL tells me something is WRONG. Very wrong. But I can’t help you with that…sorry

  335. Werewolf at #

    Thanks for your answer Jim Johann Jr.

  336. Werewolf at #

    Pete Sisco I am no beginner in SCT and have trained further more using other systems.

    “That your strength has dropped from 230 kg on those two exercises to 120-130 kg would be a far bigger issue…at least that’s my opinion” said. Jim Johann Jr.

    Pete Sisco can you please explain what I am to do. I would greatly like your help so that I can train with purpose.

  337. Werewolf, here are your problems:
    1. You’ve never bought and read anything about SC training so you keep asking everybody else to figure it out for you. So you want other people on here to drop what they are doing and train you. (People who PM me and say, ‘Get rid of this guy!”) Why don’t you start by actually reading about it?
    2. You lifted 50% of what you could lift on your previous workout??? Guess what? You aren’t recovered. Take 90 days off. Don’t lift anything heavier than a fork. Then see what your numbers are.
    3. Stop asking for another 35 opinions about what you should do.

  338. Werewolf at #

    Thanks for your advice Pete Sisco.
    I will try resting 90 days.

  339. Werewolf at #

    I have read both SCT and PFT.

  340. James Herried at #

    Some real thought-provoking ideas here. While I’m enjoying the strong range bench, I don’t believe my chest muscles really get too much out of it. I gave up benching years ago primarily due to shoulder pain, which I don’t get with the SCT sets. And to be honest I enjoy the movement.

    I use to follow some of Steve Justa’s workout ideas and bearhugging a 30 gallon drum filled with dirt, gravel and rocks was fun (not filled to the top to be clear) and that motion did cause the chest muscles to work like crazy and I’d bet a 55 gallon drum would’ve been much more difficult. I’m trying to picture the machine and I’m drawing a blank.

    But the idea of going outside some of the long-time traditional movements might very well be the answer. I suspect that so much of what we do is based on history, tradition, and what worked for the big boys (Doug Hepburn and Rep Park on the bench) that we all subconsciously imitated over the years. Obviously, most of the info came from them via some rather unscientific magazines. Heck…I worked for months on a paper route so I could buy the old Universal Bodybuilding Course…and I thought I had the Holy Grail in my hands when it arrived!

    Hi Jim,

    I did reply to your comment, but I did so from my phone. And for some reason, it didn’t show up here.
    You say you’re enjoying the “strong range” bench press, but you’re muscles don’t get too much out of it.
    But the truth is that there’s no such thing as a “strong range” bench press. The bench press can be done only in your “weak range” of motion. Which is probably why your muscles don’t get much out of the bench press.

    It’s important to know that the bench press is a compound exercise; which means that it consists of doing 2 or more “different types” of motions at once.

    And therein lies the problem with most compound exercises:
    whenever you combine 2 or more different types of motions into one exercise, it usually restricts your range of motion, sometimes significantly, for some or all of the motions being done.
    And that prevents you from achieving maximum intensity, or even high intensity in the muscles used for those motions.
    And with the bench press, you’re restricted entirely to your “weak range” of motion, for the type of motion that’s being done for your chest muscles. And your weak range is where you have the lowest levels of “dynamic contraction” or DC (the type of contraction that causes motion), and thus, the lowest levels of intensity, for any amount of weight used.

    That’s why I’m always somewhat amused when I hear people insist that you must always use a “full range of motion” to build maximum muscle. Yet they also adamantly insist that the bench press is the best exercise for building your pecs, and is “the king of chest exercises”.
    Anyone who believes those 2 claims has a huge contradiction in their training philosophy, since the bench press limits your range of motion so much. And even worse, limits you to your weak range of motion.

    Now, it is true that the bench press enables you to lift more weight than other chest exercises do. But, there’s a reason for that. And guess what: it has nothing to do with the strength of your chest muscles! I mean, you’ve got the same chest muscles, whether you do the bench press, the pec deck or the dumbbell flye. Your chest muscles don’t suddenly become stronger, just because you do the bench press, instead of those other chest exercises.

    The reason is simply this: leverage. When you’re doing the bench press, your chest muscles have a lot less leverage to work against, than they do when you’re doing the dumbbell flye.
    And for rotary-type motions (such as the bench press) leverage is just as important as the amount of weight that you use, in determining how much “resistance” your muscles have to work against.

    So when you do the bench press, you have to use more weight, in order to bring the resistance up to the levels you would achieve when doing the dumbbell flye; which uses lighter weights, but also uses much greater amounts of leverage.

    So all that extra weight you use when doing the bench press may be good for your ego. But it’s just an illusion. I mean, nobody’s chest muscles are that strong!

    And ultimately, it’s the amount of “resistance” that your muscles have to work against that determines how much resistance-induced contraction (RC) is generated in your muscles. And for rotary-type motions, “leverage” is equally important to “amount of weight”, in determining how much resistance your muscles have to work against.

    That said, the dumbbell flye doesn’t solve the intensity-restricting shortcomings of the bench press; at least as it’s usually done. Because it too limits you to your weak range of motion. Although it does enable you to get a little closer to your strong range than does the bench press.

  341. Anthony at #

    James Herriad,

    What are you getting at! I remember you used to sell a book. But cmon man people have used the bench press here and got amazingly strong. It had a whole body effect. Its not just about the muscles here. If the body is under high stress of weight it will grow from only a couple of exercises as a few of us have proved. I only do 2 exercises at this point. Static bench press and static dead lift. Thats it. My whole body grows. Your missing the point of it. Most people have NOT loaded a bench press heavy enough and hard enough and then rested long enough to experience its effects. Your speaking of isolation exercises generate more muscle intensity. WELL DUH of course they do. A targeted contraction is more intense on the muscle sure… BUT what these compound exercises accomplish are the systemic effects beyond just muscle intensity!

  342. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    James/Anthony,

    I will be honest here…I am NOT an exercise physiologist nor a scientist of any kind. I never think about or read about slow/fast/superfast twitch muscle fibers, aminos or ATP and phospate. I’ve never hooked up electrodes to any muscles to test contraction/intensity of compound vs rotary/isolation exercises….I’m kind of a rube when it comes to that stuff.

    However, I have lifted for over 40 years now and anecdotally here’s my take: a predominantly rotary workout schedule is the fast track to nowhere for most people. The ecto-skinny guys as well as the endo-heavy guys all come to the gym and immediatley go to the 15 pound (not counting for the 12 pulleys) cable crossovers or DB flyes with pencil-sized weights. And some lateral raises and leg extensions round out their 1-2 day routine (because they disappear after that). I could probably have tossed in a set or two of pec-deck and/or machine preacher curls.

    I’m a compound exercise guy. It’s why I like the PFT/SCT routines of Pete’s. But I also like Pavel’s GTG and low rep Easy Strength methods, Dinosaur Training ideas, Convict Conditioning, and Steve Justa stuff. Old-timers like Louis Cyr, Arthur Saxon, Hermann Goerner and Thomas Inch are endlesssly fascinating to me. I think weight on the bar matters. That’s why I’m not as fond of the SuperSlow or Ren-X crowd and their derivatives. I like their focus on short, infrequent workouts, but their tendency to downplay weight/resistance doesn’t interest me. Not that they are wrong as I believe many of their adherents derive everything they want from these methods.

    At this point in my life, I prefer doing the SCT beta sets (what’s looking to be about once every 3-4 weeks), but in between I do some grease-the-groove calisthenics like slow diamond push ups, Australian pull-ups, various bridging exercises. Nothing big on these I just really like doing the movements, but never to any all-out level. It’s comparable to my near daily walk…I’m not trying to kill myself or set new PRs…just get out there and walk on a sustainable basis. I try to drink more water as well and take some metamucil everyday. This works for me and can be repeated.

    I’m not going to be Mr Olympia, nor a powerlifting/olympic weightlifting champion, however I might be the strongest guy in my neighborhood…come to think of it, I may also be 3rd 🙂 No exercise method is going to change those genetics! Who cares!?

    I’m happy to be 56 and still doing heavy stuff on occasion, I can do a full back bridge (but there is a price to pay if done frequently), and I can bang out 5-10 slow diamonds almost any time. My interest is what will I be doing at 66, 76, 86 and beyond? I’m pretty sure doing Pete’s SCT regimen every month or so will form a solid foundation for becoming an old guy. How good is that, eh?

  343. James Herried at #

    Hi Anthony,

    What you seem to be referring to is the demonstrated effect that compound exercises have to stimulate your central nervous system, in such a way as to release greater amounts of testosterone and human growth hormone.

    And although that in itself is a good thing, it’s doesn’t take the place of achieving maximum intensity or maximum muscle-growth stimulation, for the purpose of building maximum muscle.
    If it did, then teenagers would be the most muscular people around, since they have the highest levels of testosterone and growth hormone!

    You still have to work the individual muscle at a higher level than it’s currently accustomed to, to get it to grow, regardless of your hormone levels and balances.

    And the truth is, you cannot achieve maximum intensity by doing either the bench press or the deadlift. Which means that theoretically, you cannot build maximum muscle by doing those exercises.

    And I explained why, in the case of the bench press. The bench press limits you entirely to your weak range of motion. And your weak range is where you have the least amount of dynamic contraction (DC), and thus the lowest levels of intensity and muscle-growth stimulation, for any amount of weight used. So you’ll never build maximum muscle in your chest by doing the bench press.

    In fact, as I stated, doing the bench press is akin to doing the biceps curl, and lifting the weight only 2-3 inches, and then lowering it. And you’re obviously not going to build maximum muscle in your biceps by doing the biceps curl that way. Likewise, you won’t build maximum muscle in your chest by doing the bench press that way either! But that’s the only way you can do the bench press.

    And your claim that you can build your entire physique just by doing the bench press and the deadlift is ludicrous. How can build muscle in your biceps, your latissimus dorsi muscles, your rhomboids, or your calves(to name just a few), when those muscle groups aren’t even used for those exercises?

    Obviously you can’t.

  344. Anthony at #

    James,

    You said “In fact, as I stated, doing the bench press is akin to doing the biceps curl, and lifting the weight only 2-3 inches, and then lowering it. And you’re obviously not going to build maximum muscle in your biceps by doing the biceps curl that way. ”

    If you life that weight 2-3 inches and hold it in a static position with maximum load for around 5 seconds THEN lower it… it will do wonders for your muscle. So I’m not sure what you are talking about there bud. So what do you see wrong with lifting a weight 2-3 inches now lol?

    Look it sounds as if you are promoting static holds with isolation exercises. I guarantee you think the best chest exercise is the pec dec in the contracted position. Thats fine but people have put on loads of muscle with a wide grip bench press if you do it properly. I know your isiolation excerises work too. Feel free to email me at: thealliancementor@gmail.com

    I`d like to share something with you.

    – Anthony

  345. Donnie Hunt at #

    Great comments going here guys. Lots to think and about.

  346. James Herried at #

    You said “In fact, as I stated, doing the bench press is akin to doing the biceps curl, and lifting the weight only 2-3 inches, and then lowering it. And you’re obviously not going to build maximum muscle in your biceps by doing the biceps curl that way. ”

    If you life that weight 2-3 inches and hold it in a static position with maximum load for around 5 seconds THEN lower it… it will do wonders for your muscle. So I’m not sure what you are talking about there bud. So what do you see wrong with lifting a weight 2-3 inches now lol?

    Look it sounds as if you are promoting static holds with isolation exercises. I guarantee you think the best chest exercise is the pec dec in the contracted position. Thats fine but people have put on loads of muscle with a wide grip bench press if you do it properly. I know your isiolation excerises work too.

    Hi Anthony,

    Sorry to disrupt your love affair with the bench press. But it seems as if you’re so intent on defending that overrated exercise, that now you’re willing to go as far as to say that you can do static holds or reps anywhere in your range of motion, and get the same muscle-growth stimulation effect.

    But the truth is this:for any given amount of “resistance” that your muscle has to work against, you can always generate higher levels of “intensity” in your strong range, than you can in your weak range. And that’s simply you can always generate higher levels of “dynamic contraction” (DC), and thus more “contraction per unit of time” (i.e. per second) in your strong range, than you can in your weak range.

    So for any given amount of resistance that your muscle has to work against, your muscle will always have to “work harder” in your strong range, than in your weak range. And intensity is not only the #1 key to muscle-growth stimulation, it’s also the ultimate measure of “hard muscular work”.

    So In order to get a muscle to work as hard as it possibly can, and achieve the highest level of intensity possible, to achieve the greatest muscle-growth stimulation possible, you need to generate “maximum contraction per unit of time” (per second) in the working muscle.

    And that cannot be achieved in your weak range, for any given amount of resistance that the muscle has to work against. Because there’s not enough dynamic contraction (DC) in your weak range to achieve maximum intensity; regardless of how much weight you use.

    And if your believe you can achieve the same “muscle-growth stimulation” effects, regardless of where you do the exercise in your range of motion, it’s probably because you’re using an incorrect definition for exercise intensity.

  347. James Herried at #

    Hi Anthony,

    There’s nothing “wrong” with lifting the weight only2-3 inches (as in the case of the biceps curl, or the bench press), and limiting yourself to your weak range of motion. In fact, you can achieve some muscle-growth stimulation that way, of course.

    You just can’t achieve “maximum intensity” that way. Or even “high” intensity, for that matter. And that’s simply because you can’t generate enough “dynamic contraction” (DC) in your weak range, to achieve those higher levels of intensity that you can generate in your strong range; where you have much greater amounts of dynamic contraction (DC), and thus higher levels of intensity, for any amount of resistance that the muscle has to work against.

    And if you can’t achieve maximum intensity, you can’t achieve maximum muscle-growth stimulation; regardless of how much weight you use!

    And the bench press is a perfect example of that fact.

  348. James, you mention ‘maximum intensity’ and ‘dynamic contraction.’ What are the mathematical measurements of these? How do your numbers compare to strongest range partial reps with maximum weights?

    Tell me the formulas and I’ll plug them in to the data I have.
    Without crystal clear definitions of these terms we just go in circles arguing opinions.

  349. Anthony at #

    you said…
    And if your believe you can achieve the same “muscle-growth stimulation” effects, regardless of where you do the exercise in your range of motion, it’s probably because you’re using an incorrect definition for exercise intensity.

    I never said that. also watch your words. incorrect definition is your opinion. you have an incorrect view. ours is sound and correct. 🙂 see how silly it sounds . pete is right we can argue alk day about whose more correct. test test test

  350. James Herried at #

    Hi Anthony,

    Notice that I said “if” you believe you can achieve the same muscle-growth stimulation effects, regardless of where you do the exercise in your range of motion. Did you get that distinction? Do you know what the word “if” means? Or maybe you just didn’t notice it.

    So I didn’t say you actually believe that way. But, when you recommend doing reps or static holds in your weak range of motion for maximum muscle growth (as in the case of the bench press), that certainly seems to be what you’re implying.

    Just be grateful for the fact that I opened your eyes (and the eyes of others here) to something you probably didn’t know previously:

    Whenever you do the bench press, you’re doing partial reps in your weak range of motion, where you generate the lowest levels of intensity, and thus the lowest levels of muscle-growth stimulation, for any amount of resistance that the muscle has to work against.

    And there’s absolutely no way you can successfully refute that fact.

    Thus, the bench press not only violates one of the most hallowed rules of conventional training; which is that you must always use a full-range of motion, for maximum muscle growth.

    It also violates one of the most important rules of both Power Factor Training (PFT) and Static Contraction Training (SCT), as taught by Pete Sisco. Which is that partial reps and static holds must be done in your “strong range” of motion, to achieve the highest levels of intensity and muscle-growth stimulation possible.

    And that’s definitely a good rule to follow. Because, what advantage is there to doing reps or static holds in your “weak” range of motion instead of your “strong” range of motion, when you can achieve higher levels of intensity and muscle-growth stimulation in your strong range?

    There is no advantage to limiting yourself to your weak range. It you do that, you’re at a “distinct disadvantage”, when it comes to muscle-growth stimulation and muscle growth.

    But that’s the only way you can do the bench press. Which is why most people will obtain only modest gains in size and strength from doing it.

    The bench press might have worked for Schwarzenegger. But Schwarzenegger wasn’t like most people. And notice I said it “might” have worked for Schwarzenegger. Because I have no way of knowing exactly what exercises were most responsible for developing his physique (aside from the steroids he took).

    In fact, Schwarzenegger himself probably doesn’t even know for sure what chest exercises were most effective for enabling him to “pack on the pecs”. Because he probably did every chest exercise he could, back in the days when he lived in the gym.

  351. Donnie Hunt at #

    Great comments guys. Great points. Some of the mainstays in my workouts: Using a quite conservative range of motion when I do reg ular reps/dynamic contractions. I can see resons for doing static contractions at various parts of a range of motion. I personally don’t do them at the extremes of pretty much any range of motion. I llike the sun analogy a lot compared toitensity of contraction. I often wonder about contracting against an immovable object and continuingo.contract as your force output drops, but your effort is still high.

  352. James Herried at #

    Hi Pete,

    There is no way to measure or determine “dynamic contraction” (DC) mathematically. Unless you have some special equipment for that. And for the purpose of achieving “maximum intensity”, and thus maximum muscle-growth stimulation, there doesn’t have to be.

    Dynamic contraction (DC), is a term that I came up with years ago, when I developed the Maximum Intensity workout plan. And I was inspired and motivated to do that after reading your book Power Factor Training.

    I called it “dynamic” contraction at the time, because it’s “the type of contraction that causes motion”; such as when you bend your arm, or straighten your leg.

    And the reason that there doesn’t have to be a way to mathematically measure dynamic contraction (DC) is this:

    Based upon the definition for exercise intensity that I used to form the foundation of the Maximum Intensity workout plan, maximum intensity can be achieved only at your point of “maximum dynamic contraction” (DC).

  353. Anonymous at #

    I respect what your saying James. But Your point on full range of motion. I’m confused if you believe in static holds in strongest range or if you are convential and believe you must do full range of motion exercises.

    So what’s your workout plan. Your turn James break down your plan your rest days and your results. I’m curious man. Btw I’m liking this conversation and always open to people’s experiences. I’m not saying the bench press is the best But it allows me to hoist a lot of weight for systemic effects. If I wanted to do the most intense contraction for my chest specifically I’d do a peck deck in a fully contracted position static hold.

  354. Anthony at #

    James,

    I’m not a fan of heavy weighted isolation exercises. It’s too easy to trigger massive muscle imbalances and cause structural damage. But if you have results to back it. Good for you!

  355. The main thing I have against isolation exercises is the inefficiency of them compared to heavy, compound exercises. Isolation can be useful when rehabilitating a specific injury though. (Which might have been injured doing a heavy isolation movement in the first place. Haha!)

  356. Donnie Hunt at #

    Great discussion going here guys.

    I think I’m going to try contracting against immovable movement arms again. Looking at all this from an inside out perspective. With the equipment I have access to there is no exeternal feedback. Having access to a machine like Pete has talked about on here before would be a very interesting experiment / trial indeed. As you would have a gauge of output/force/tension. I think what really interests me about this type of setup is you stop contracting when YOU stop contracting. With an external load you have to yield to the weight / load once your tempory strength is less than load. Not knocking this either. Just somethings I find interesting. Something else that comes to mind is the idea that you have have certain machine mechanics present to be able to better isolate certain muscles, avoid weak links. Is this maybe also a matter of a starting from the inside perspective? Being able to strongly contract these “hard to reach muscles” without special machines but rather strong mind/muscle connection. I can see the argument for this with compound and isolation exercises. Sorry if some of this comment is incoherant. I’m typing on my phone. reach musclesthat the loau

  357. James Herried at #

    To Anonymous,

    The Maximum Intensity workout plan that I developed years ago (as a take-off on Power Factor Training), consists entirely of isolation exercises and static holds, all done at your point of “maximum dynamic contraction” (DC); for whatever type of motion that the exercise is based upon.

    And that’s because theoretically, that’s the only way you can generate “maximum intensity” in the working muscle, and thus achieve maximum muscle-growth stimulation. At least according to the definition for “exercise intensity” that I chose, to form the foundation of the Maximum Intensity method.

    I chose that definition for exercise intensity (out of the “universal mind”, so to speak), because it made the most sense to me, theoretically. And when I applied that definition to all of the different types of motions that the human body can perform with weights, it worked beautifully.

    And as a result, I was able to go from about 152 lbs. to 197 lbs. in a relatively short period of time, just by doing isolation exercises, executed as static holds at my points of maximum dynamic contraction (DC). And since I don’t put on fat easily at all, almost all of that added weight was muscle.

    And I don’t believe I could have accomplished that by doing conventional weight-training exercises (all of which I had tried), or by doing compound exercises (all of which I had tried).

    I can see why you would be confused about my training philosophy, however. For example, I did state that the bench press, one of the highly revered of all weight-training exercises, does violate one of the most hallowed rules of conventional training; which is that you must always use a full-range of motion, to build maximum muscle.

    But, I didn’t say that to imply that you need to use a “full-range of motion” to build maximum muscle.You don’t. I said that to point out a long-standing contradiction that has occurred in conventional workout plans for decades.

    On the one hand, such workout plans have lead us to believe that you need to use a full range of motion to build maximum muscle. Yet at the same time, such plans tout the bench press as being the most effective exercise for building your chest muscles, even though it’s impossible to use a full range of motion when doing the bench press. In fact, you can’t even come close to doing so. You can only go through a fraction of your full-range of motion when doing the bench press. And it limits you to your weak range of motion.

    So if a workout plan has a huge contradiction like that, there’s something wrong with the plan. And ideally, you would want to modify the workout plan, to eliminate the contradiction.
    And it’s interesting to note that there are several other popular,conventional exercises that also limit your range of motion. And some of those also limit you to your weak range, just as the bench press does.
    And what’s amazing is that for decades, almost nobody in conventional training seems to have known about this contradiction.

  358. James Herried at #

    Hi Pete,

    I didn’t finish answering your question about “dynamic contraction”, because my computer ran out of power.

    As I stated, “dynamic contraction” (DC) is a term that I used years ago, to refer to “the type of contraction that causes motion”. Such as when you bend your arm, or straighten your leg.

    And as you know, as you go through the concentric phase of motion, the amount of dynamic contraction (DC) in the muscle gradually increases. So by the time you reach the end of the concentric phase, the muscle is fully contracted “dynamically”. And that’s your point of maximum dynamic contraction (DC).

    I used the term “dynamic contraction” to distinguish it from the other type of contraction that’s important for strength-training and building muscle, which I called “resistance-induced contraction” (RC). Resistance-induced contraction is the type of contraction that occurs in the muscle, as a result of working against “a net, external force” or “resistance”; such as that provided by a weight.

    And according to the definition for exercise intensity that I used to build the Maximum Intensity workout plan, you need to generate both maximum “dynamic” contraction (DC) and maximum “resistance-induced” contraction (RC) simultaneously, throughout the entire exercise, in order to achieve “maximum intensity”, and thus, maximum muscle-growth stimulation.

    So according to that definition, maximum intensity, and maximum muscle-growth stimulation can be achieved, only by doing static holds at your point of maximum dynamic contraction(DC).

    And since maximum dynamic contraction (DC) doesn’t change during the static hold, and since it doesn’t change from one workout to the next for any type of exercise (assuming you have maximum DC), there’s no need to measure it mathematically.

  359. James Herried at #

    Hi Pete and Anthony,

    I’ve been doing isolation exercises for years. Plus, I’ve been doing them at a level of “maximum intensity”. And I’ve never experienced any injuries or muscular imbalances whatsoever, as a result of doing them.

    If anything, I would say that in general, compound exercises can be potentially more dangerous than isolation exercises are.

    Compare the “bench press” (a compound exercise) with the “pec deck” (an isolation exercise) for example. Which do you think is potentially more dangerous? The answer should be pretty obvious.

    In any case, the pec deck has it over the bench press in regards to building muscle. And that’s because the pec deck enables you to achieve “maximum intensity”, and thus maximum muscle-growth stimulation in your chest muscles. Whereas the bench press does not.

    And that’s because the pec deck (if done properly) enables you to get all the way to your points of maximum dynamic contraction (DC), which is required for achieving maximum muscle-growth stimulation. But with the bench press, you can’t even come close to your points of maximum dynamic contraction (DC). In fact, you can’t even get into your “strong range” when doing the bench press!

    The truth is that isolation exercises are the only way you can fully develop your physique proportionately. It’s impossible to achieve that goal by relying on compound exercises alone.
    And I explain why, in great detail, in a new article I recently published, “The Truth About Compound Exercises: Their Strengths, and Their Limitations”.

    And after reading that article, anyone should understand why bodybuilders have always done isolation exercises, and will always do isolation exercises, to develop the bodies they want.

  360. James Herried at #

    I should also point out that the “pec deck” is safer than the “bench press”, only if you do the pec deck with a bend in your arm.

    If you do the pec deck with a straight arm, it can damage your elbow joint, if the weights get really heavy,

    The same is true for the “dumbbell flye”. When you do the dumbbell flye with heavier weights (more than 15-20 lbs), you have to allow a bend to occur in your arm, to avoid damaging your elbow joint. And the heavier the weights get, the more of a bend you have to have in your arm, to avoid injury.

    What’s frustrating, however, is that a lot of gyms have now replaced the older pec deck machines (that were designed to allow you to bend your arm) with newer machines, that are designed to have you perform the exercise with a straight arm.

    I don’t know why they did this. But it’s a totally bad idea.

  361. James Herried at #

    Currently, the best thing that I have to say about compound exercises is that they’ve been shown to stimulate your endocrine system more effectively than do isolation exercises.
    Thus, compound exercises are more effective than are isolation exercises, in regards to getting your body to produce more testosterone, and release more human growth hormone (HGH).

    So for that reason alone, I would include compound exercises in any workout plan.

    But I certainly wouldn’t rely on compound exercises alone to achieve maximum intensity, maximum muscle-growth stimulation, or to fully develop your physique proportionately.

    And there are 3 compelling reasons for that, which I can mention later.

  362. James Herried at #

    To Anonymous,

    The primary reason that the bench press enables you to hoist a lot of extra weight is due to “leverage”. It’s not due to the strength of your chest muscles. That’s just an illusion.

    When you do the bench press, your chest muscles have a lot less “leverage” to work against, than when you do other chest exercises, such as the dumbbell flye, where your chest muscles have a lot more leverage to work against. And that’s simply because when you do the bench press, the weight is positioned a lot closer to your shoulder joint, than it is when you do the dumbbell flye.

    And for rotary-type motions (such as that used for the bench press and dumbbell flye), “leverage” is equally important to the “amount of weight” used, in determining how much “resistance” the muscle has to work against.

    And ultimately, it’s the amount of “resistance” (the net external force that the muscle has to work against) that determines how much “resistance-induced contraction” (RC), and thus how much intensity is generated in the working muscle.

    So when you do the bench press, the leverage is so much less than for the dumbbell flye, that it enables to use a lot more weight, to bring the resistance up to the levels you would have when doing the dumbbell flye; which uses much lighter weights, but a much greater amount of leverage, for the chest muscles to work against.

    So again, all that extra weight that you lift when doing the bench press is just an illusion. It’s not any indication that your chest muscles have suddenly become stronger when doing the bench press, as opposed to doing other chest exercises. You’ve got the same chest muscles either way!

  363. James Herried at #

    Hi Pete and Anthony,

    You might be interested to know why I made the statement that isolation exercises are the only way you fully develop your physique proportionately. And here’s one of the major reasons why, as I explained in the Maximum Intensity workout plan years ago:

    There are at least 42 different “types of motions” that the human body can perform with weights. And since each one of those motions recruits a unique combination of muscle fibers, some of which don’t come into play for any other type of motion, all 42 must be done, or full development of your physique.
    And ideally, they should all be done so as to generate “maximum intensity”, to achieve maximum muscle-growth stimulation.

    And only about 18 of those motions can be included in compound exercises. So what about the other 24?

    Well, the other 24 can be done only as isolation isolations. And if you neglect those other 24 different types of motions, which you will certainly be doing if you perform only compound exercises exclusively, then the muscle fibers that come into play “only for those types of motions” will remain dormant and undeveloped.

    Consider your triceps, for example. What many people (including many “experts”) still don’t seem to know is this: there are actually “3 different types of motions” that you need to do, to fully work and develop your triceps.

    Why 3? Because each one of those 3 motions recruits and works different muscle fibers in the triceps, that the others don’t do. So for full development of your triceps, all 3 must be done.

    But compound exercises can include only 1 of those 3 motions. The other 2 can be done only as isolation exercises. And even that one that can be included in compound exercises can’t be done in a way so as to achieve maximum intensity, when it’s done as part of a compound exercise.

    So you’ll never fully develop your triceps by doing compound exercises alone. Because a lot of muscle fibers in your triceps can’t be worked by doing compound exercises. You need to do isolation exercises to work those muscle fibers.

    Now consider your forearm muscles. There are actually “7 different types of motions” that you need to do, to fully work and develop your forearm muscles. Why 7?

    Well again, because each one of those 7 motions recruits and works different muscle fibers in your forearms, that the other motions don’t do. So for full development of your forearm muscles, all 7 must be done.

    But none of those 7 forearm motions can be included in compound exercises. They can be done only as isolation exercises. So if you do only compound exercises, you won’t work or build your forearm muscles!

    And that brings us to one of the major limitations of compound exercises: a lot of muscle fibers, and some entire muscle groups (such as your forearm muscles) cannot be worked at all by means of compound exercises.

    But all of those muscle fibers and muscle groups can be worked by doing isolation exercises.

    I could go on and on about this, citing this muscle group, and that muscle group that can’t be fully worked via compound exercises, for reasons similar to those given above.

  364. I think about 1 guy in 1,000 has or works towards a mathematically symmetrical physique, such as what has been described by and demonstrated by Steve Reeves.

    I’ve always focused on efficiency in the gym, and the heavy, compound exercises are what deliver the greatest power, physical transformation, and mass gain the fastest. A relative handful of exercises can get most men and women where they want to be in terms of their functional strength and body mass.

    Some people might want to fiddle with tiny exercises with lighter weights, either because they just love being in the gym, or because they really care about the look of that extensor carpi radialis brevis muscle on their left forearm lagging the one on the right.

  365. Werewolf at #

    Hi fellows,

    I don’t mean anything sinister with my following question:
    How can deadlift alone or deadlift and benchpress alone activate all muscles in the human body?
    It does not sound logical.

  366. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Wolf,

    Why don’t you do the DL or DL/BP only routine for a couple years and then come back and tell us which muscle groups are lacking? Personally, I think this question tells us something about you…you want to be a bodybuilder! While not a personal goal of mine, it sure sounds like it is for you. So go do bodybuilding! This isn’t a bodybuilder program/website at least as far as I can tell. Pete’s thrust is a highly efficient program designed to get you in and out of the gym in very minimal time (once every couple weeks to every other month or even longer). Pete’s even said a large portion of his clientele are 40-50+ yr olds who, I would guess are a lot more concerned with paying off the mortgage, putting kids through college and being able to save enough money to one day retire versus developing all or every(in the strictest sense of the words) their muscles!

    And if you’re concerned about the PFT/SCT strength being an illusion because it works on short range leverage and therefore maybe doesn’t “feel” real to you…then spend 10 years powerlifting and competing and then try to get an invitation into Westside where Louis Simmons can train you. He probably knows more about full-range strength in the powerlifting moves than anyone I’ve ever read about. But because the goals are different, you can’t expect Pete’s website/program to be “better” at powerlifting than Westside!

    I think has to be understood is that Pete offers a couple of options for a person interested in building their strength with a very minimal outlay of time. If you’re looking for soemthing outside of that…then OK, but that’s not what this website/program provides.

    I am not denigrating the goals of bodybuilding or powerlifting, but that’s just not what this site is built to provide.

  367. Werewolf at #

    On the book cover and in it is written that you will gain enormous results
    so I assume it is for bodybuilders.

  368. Donnie Hunt at #

    Thank you for the continuing motivation guys. I find value in what all of you are talking about and advocating. That is the beauty of blogs such as this.

  369. Hi Werewolf,

    You’re right:neither the deadlift nor the bench press can activate all the muscle fibers in the human body. And the 2 combined can’t do it either! And here’s why:

    There are at least 42 different types of motions that the human body can perform with weights.
    And each one of those motions recruits a unique combination of muscle fibers, some of which don’t come into play for any other motion.

    So in order to fully develop your physique proportionately, all 42 of those motions must be done with weights; or some form of resistance.

    But the deadlift and bench press combined cover only 5 of those different types of motions. So what about the other 37?

    Well, if you rely exclusively on the bench press and deadlift alone to build your muscles and develop your physique, you won’t activate or develop any of the muscle fibers than come into play only for those other 37 motions.

    Which means that you won’t build your biceps at all, if you do only the deadlift and the bench press. Because the 2 types of motions that you need to do to fully build and develop your biceps are used for the deadlift or the bench press.

    You also won’t build or develop your latissimus dorsi muscles (the largest muscles of your back) at all. Because the 4 types of motions that you need to do to fully work and develop your lats aren’t used for the bench press or the deadlift,

    You also won’t build or develop your forearm muscles at all. Because the 7 different types of motions that are needed to fully work and develop your forearm muscles aren’t used for the deadlift or the bench press.

    You also won’t build or develop your rhomboids, or your trapezius, or your calves, or your abs at all, for similar reasons. And the list goes on.

    And even those muscles than can be included in the bench press and the deadlift can’t be worked or developed fully, by doing those exercises.

    For example, the bench press will work your anterior deltoids, to an extent. But it won’t do a thing for your median deltoids (the largest part of your deltoiods) or posterior deltoids. To fully work those parts of your deltoids, you have to do other types of motions that are not included in either the bench press or the deadlift.

  370. Werewolf at #

    How do I gain maximum gains in all (/-most of) body’s muscles without overtraining?

  371. Anthony at #

    James how long do you rest between workouts personally…

  372. Hi Anthony,

    Currently, I generally wait at least 6 weeks before I do any given type of exercise again.
    But, I workout about 2-3 times a week.

  373. Hi Werewolf,

    To get maximum gains in all of your muscle groups, you need to do all 42 (or more) of the different types of motions that the human body can perform with weights. And that’s because each motion recruits a unique combination of muscle fibers, some of which don’t come into play for any other type of motion.

    And, to achieve “maximum” gains, you need to generate “maximum intensity” in the working muscles, for each of those types of motions.

    Plus, there are a few motions that you need to do, that cannot be done with weights at all. You can only do those motions isometrically. And ideally, you should do them “the maximum intensity way”. But you still have to do them, to work and develop the muscle fibers that come into play only for those types of motions.

    I included all 42 of those different types of motions in the Maximum Intensity workout plan that I developed years ago, after reading Pete Sisco’s book Power Factor Training. And I showed people how to achieve maximum intensity for each one.

    And I believe that Maximum Intensity was probably the first (and only) workout plan in history ever to take that unique, two-pronged approach to strength-training, and developing your physique.

    But, I never did publish my book on Maximum Intensity Strength Training (MIST). Just so you know that I’m not selling a book on here. Because the book was never published.

    Then to do all that without overtraining, you simply have to do what Pete Sisco has been advocating for years:train by your numbers.

    Generally, your numbers should tell you if you’re overtraining or not. Although you can’t always go by that, because there are other variables in your lifestyle (in addition to overtraining) that can affect your performance in the gym.

  374. Hi Jim,

    In my opinion, everyone should train like a bodybuilder. And here’s why:

    As I have been emphasizing for years (and as I wrote in my book on Maximum Intensity Strength Training years ago), muscle is youth!

    And if there is a fountain of youth, it’s simply the heavy metal in your local gym.

    Think about it: aside from the cosmetic benefits of bodybuilding, there’s only one way you can stop, and even reverse the loss of mass and strength that occurs in your muscles and bones,as you get older. And that is to workout with weights! Nothing else will do it.

    So they don’t call it “strength-training” for nothing!

    Yet muscle-growth is a very slow process. And it generally becomes slower, the older you get.
    Plus, most people are “hard-gainers”, at any age.

    So that’s why I believe that anyone who wants to remain strong, youthful, healthy and fit their entire life needs to train like a bodybuilder. Even if your goal isn’t to be one!

  375. Anthony at #

    To workout with weight as being the only way is wrong. And false. Weight is resistance. you can do it on a static machine which measures your weight. Requires no weights whatsoever. you need to change your wording there James. Weights are a tool to create a contraction. You can do the same on a proper static contraction machine or apparatus.

  376. Anthony at #

    So James let me get this straight. You exercises once every 6 weeks but at the same time you train 3 times a week…. so I’m assuming your doing some sort of cardio.

  377. Jim Johann Jr at #

    James/Wolf,

    I agree with muscle=youth but I diverge on the path from you. Here’s why.

    Wolf is having a recovery issue and as such his progress in the last months/year is to have lost 50% or more of his pulling/pushing strength. And yes there are all kinds of factors about wolf we don’t know that may be affecting his recovery…maybe he’s training for a marathon, maybe he’s recovering from cancer treatment..who knows. But what we do know, is he isn’t recovering from 2 exercises done in Pete’s “strongest range” (use his definition for now). So your answer is for him to perform 42 exercises in “your” maximum intensity range (which I take from your writing dwarfs Pete’s intensity range). All I can say is good luck wolf recovering from that!

    Here’s why I prefer the powerlifting orientation (I’ve already stated I’m not interested in hours of workouts and drugs) of using the big compound exercises. The old Hardgainer author Mike Thompson once wrote that “If genetic supermen like Anderson and Hepburn had to spend their time pushing, pulling, and squatting big weights to get so big and strong, why were little guys waving around little DBs?” This is not an exact quote but it certainly captures the essence of what he was saying.

    Wolf- go look at some powerlifters (find a gym or look up pictures/videos) and tell me seriously what muscles they’re missing by focusing on the DL/B/Sq? Look at their forearms and calves and tell me they’re lacking. Then get busy for 2-3 years doing DL/Bench using either PFT or SCT and get your weights up to 500-600 in the bench and 700-800 in the DL…then decide for yourself. Experiment. Try James’ method first if you think that will help “maximally develop almost every muscle”.

    I think one of the best aspects of Pete’s system is the time efficiency! At 56 I have no interest in spending hours in the gym several times a week. 10-15 minutes setting up and exercising with beta SCT is plenty good enough for me.

    We all get to make choices and all our choices come with consequences and a price to be paid.
    Best wishes all!

  378. Hi Anthony,

    You made the statement that “weight is “resistance”.
    Well, apparently you don’t know that “weight” and resistance are NOT the same thing.

    Consider isometrics for example. Do you you use weights when doing isometrics? Of course not.
    But is there any resistance for the muscle to work against? Of course there is!

    So you don’t need to use weights to generate resistance.

    Resistance is the “net external force” that the muscle has to work against.

    And when you’re weight-training, the resistance can come from 3 different things:

    1) the amount of “weight” the muscle has to work against

    2) the amount of “leverage” the muscle has to work against

    3) the “rep tempo”, or speed of execution of the reps

    So although the amount of weight that you use is certainly important in determining the amount of resistance that the muscle has to work agsinst, it certainly isn’t the only factor.

    In fact, for rotary-type motions ( such as that used for the bench press), the “amount of leverage” is equally important to the “amount of weight”, in determining how much resistance the muscle has to work against.
    And the amount of resistance is what determines how much “resistance-induced contraction ( RC ) is generated in the working muscle.
    Which then determines how much intensity is generated in the muscle.

    In fact, this explains why you can lift so much weight when you do the bench press. It’s because when doing the bench press, you have a lot less “leverage” to work against than you do for the dumbbell flye. So you generate a lot less “resistance”, for any amount of weight used.
    It’s not because your chest muscles are any stronger, when you do the bench press.

    So it’s ironic that you tell me to change my wording, when you make erroneous, misleading statements like “weight is resistance”.

    As you now know (if you’ve read and understood what I just wrote), “weight” and “resistance” are two different things.

  379. Donnie Hunt at #

    Ok fellas. Gonna try this again. I’m typing on my phone. Not the best way for me but it’smy only internet access currentl.

    James,

    I love the comment on strength training being the fountain of youth. y

  380. Hi Donnie,

    Thanks, I’m glad you like the idea that “the fountain of youth is the heavy metal in your gym”.

    My goal is to make more people aware of the fact that strength-training is an essential part of any anti-aging lifestyle.

    In fact, Maximum Intensity is even more than a workout plan. It’s a lifestyle!

  381. Donnie Hunt at #

    There are many different activities that one could probably due to maintain muscle mass and increase muscle mass. But I would think it hard to find one as low impact as static contractions and or controlled movements/contractions.

    Just my point of view , but I view having external resistance as gauge. Your muscles can contract intensely without external resistance of course. So if you want to be able to have some kinda of metric, how else would you do this. There’s force gauges as well too. The external resistance also gives you that constant back pressure or “bearing down on you” stimulation. And maybe that’ s just my view on that part of it. I’m thinking of good reason for your bones and everything to have good reason to stay strong.

    Regarding compound exercises having a great deal of overall stimulation and efficient. I come back to the whole thing of being able to have intense contractions without any external load. The whole synergistic thing or the body working as a unit. Maybe being able to achieve more intense contractions with certain limb configurations, strongest ranges of motion, optimal muscle and limb configurations.

    Regarding isolation exercises or so called isolation exercises. I can see the argument/perspective of th e potential for greater mind muscle connection because you are trying to pinpoint a smaller region/area of muscle mass.

  382. Hi Jim,

    I have never had any problems recovering from the Maximum Intensity workouts, regardless of the maximum levels of intensity generated. And highly doubt that anyone would.

    Werewolf asked how he can develop all of his muscle ground without overtraining. And I simply gave him the best answer I know.

    In any case, you cannot develop all of your muscle groups by doing only the BP or the DL;or any compound exercises. That’s for sure.

    And I explained why in other comments.

  383. Donnie Hunt at #

    Thank you very much as well James. Good seeing you here.

    I think this a great bunch of conversation/information Pete has started here and let others contribute.

  384. Werewolf at #

    Thanks for answer 🙂

  385. Werewolf at #

    Drew wrote:
    Pete Sisco appears not to understand the difference between weight and resistance. The reason you can hold more weight near lockout in compound movements as he recommends is not because your muscles are stronger in that position, but because the lever they are working against is much smaller. You could place the muscles under the same or more tension with much less weight by increasing the lever, and reduce the compression or distraction forces on the joints considerably.

    Is this true?

  386. Drew has hated Power Factor for 20 years. I think he prefers to risk injury in the weakest, most vulnerable ranges of motion using lighter weights. I prefer the using heaviest weight possible under the safest and strongest conditions.

    Both ranges work. All ranges work. The real question is what does Drew (and all other trainers/critics) use to mathematically and objectively MEASURE INTENSITY on every exercise during every workout??? (I’ve never received an answer in 20 years, by the way. From any of them)

    Most trainers tell people to workout with weights 150 times per year – has any one of them ever seen 150 consecutive workouts of increased intensity? (Because they’d all be setting World Records by now if they did.)
    http://www.precisiontraining.com/proof-frequent-weightlifting-is-wasted-effort/

  387. Donnie Hunt at #

    Pete,

    I often refer back to an old article you wrote many years ago. I don’t remember the title at the moment. In it, you talk about reaching the point of muscle failure as a good baseline/starting point for a given exercise. Then after that one could focus on their numbers/increase out put/more work in a unit of time. Also in this article you talked about how their are many physical jobs and activities that people don’t do to failure. Made me think a lot. In some of your more recent writings you seem to more of an advocate of trying to reach the point of muscular failure and of course trying to beat your numbers from last workout. I think I agree with you on the point of failure thing too in conjunction with increasing numbers/intensity. The thing that always comes back to me regarding the point of failure is that one still has some some effort left in the tank after your muscles have weakened lower than an external load. I can also see where this could be taking things too far perhaps. But I must say, increasing intensity, working close to your momentary ability, and of course getting enough rest are all very important.

  388. Donnie Hunt at #

    To condense and add more clarity:

    High intensity off measured effort. Attempting to do a little more than last time, near your upper capability (muscle failure). Consistent form. Avoiding dangerous/vulnerable limb ranges.

  389. Werewolf at #

    Thanks Pete Sisco for your answer. 🙂

  390. Werewolf at #

    How do you do heavy squats without injurying vertebrae? For example high and low bar back squat?

  391. Werewolf at #

    Hi Jim
    You wrote:
    go look at some powerlifters (find a gym or look up pictures/videos) and tell me seriously what muscles they’re missing by focusing on the DL/B/Sq? Look at their forearms and calves and tell me they’re lacking. Then get busy for 2-3 years doing DL/Bench using either PFT or SCT and get your weights up to 500-600 in the bench and 700-800 in the DL…then decide for yourself.

    I don’t want to wait 2-3 years training to know what might be uneffective, please tell me now.

  392. Werewolf at #

    I am not getting stronger.
    Please someone tell me how to train. A serious help, not that I should do 42 exercises.
    Can you tell me way to test training method if it might help. I mean we are all human beings so why shouldn’t I make progress?

  393. William at #

    Pete Sisco – Appreciate your feedback and input. Continue to enjoy progress using Power Factor Training, and Static Contraction training. Especially how use easy to measure progress.

    Werewolf – you should visit Pete’s site and especially read the part on “Grip Strength as a Recovery Indicator” located on his site here – http://www.precisiontraining.com/power-factor-training-minimalism-study/

  394. Anthony at #

    Wolf

    Bottom line you’re not lifting weights. You think you are. KISS: lift heavy weight with SC or PF then Rest until you can lift more. It’s not hard.

  395. Werewolf at #

    William said
    “you should visit Pete’s site and especially read the part on “Grip Strength as a Recovery Indicator” located on his site here – http://www.precisiontraining.com/power-factor-training-minimalism-study/
    How will this help me?

  396. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Wolfie

    My suggestion still stands…PFT or SCT with DL/BP for 2-3 years and see the result. Look, there is NO WAY to know beforehand which is the absolute best approach for you to get either strong, muscularly bigger or some combination of both. In addition, your training requirements are likely to change over time. Think about it…over the years Pete has modified his systems for efficiency. The first PFT book I have (1997) he talked about some 2.5 hr workout he and John Little did for over a million pounds of work! When was the last time you saw him suggest 2.5 hr workouts on this website? His original SCT program was based on 30 sec holds for the exercises…now he recommends 5 secs.

    You have to understand, you send these general cries for help, and we provide our suggestions. But, when I answer you, I don’t personally give a crap if every single muscle is maximally developed. I don’t care about biceps or side delts or the inner tricep head. James answers you with 47 movements because thats what he cares about.

    I started doing an exercise 4 weeks ago or so that Pete never talks about…the reverse hyper. I do it because when I came back to PFT/SCT I forgot about the lower back compression issues I have that the reverse hyper just makes disappear for me. Now, for the first time, I can actually feel the glute muscles perofrming much of the DL motion, not just all my lower back. The point here is also that no matter what template you’re using for the basic program…at some point you gotta think for yourself to overcome your issues. But you aren’t ready for that yet, because you aren’t training! Dude stop crying for help and advice and get under some damn iron!

    Start your DL & BP with 50Kgs and go from there. Add reasonable weight increments when when you can, get aggressive with your training mindset and develop some mental toughness. Even if these are really light weights for you, use this beginning time to perfect your lifting form and develop your concentration, aggression, and the pure joy of grabbing a bar loaded with weight and challenging yourself from now til the day you go toes up.

  397. William at #

    Werewolf – you should read the section titled “Grip Strength as a Recovery Indicator” .
    Also, Jim Johann Jr.’s recent post has some valid points you should consider that are quite helpful.

  398. William at #

    Werewolf – it will help you judge your recovery as indicated by the article.

  399. Werewolf at #

    William,

    Am I to test my grip strenght to determine and how do I do that?
    Grip Strength as a Recovery Indicator

    Thanks.

  400. William at #

    Werewolf – excerpt from the previous link gave you; “…. the simple task of squeezing your bathroom scale the morning of your workout and recording the peak reading.” You then keep a record of it to make sure it is same to increasing before doing your next workout. If below, need to wait, if equals the previous record…your good to go. You can also ask Pete for further details.

    Remember, every workout is an experiement. Use your journal to work at improving, It may be more some times, less another.

    As others here have recommended – start doing, then you can adjust from there.

  401. Werewolf at #

    Is the squeezing bathroom scale… functional for the purpose?
    Has it been tested and verified?

  402. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Hey Mark Winchester!

    I was reviewing some of the older comments in this thread and I saw where you were planning to workout on Aug 15. I’m curious if you did the workout and how your numbers came out. If you get a chance..please let us know! Weights, reps, time…all of it. Success and positive efforts make for great reading!

    BTW was this going to be your first DL workout using the parallel grip hex bar? How did that go/feel compared to normal straight barbell?

    Jim

  403. William at #

    Werewolf – check with Pete for details it was his post, I was just reposting.

    Mark Winchester – like Jim Johann Jr, curious how the workout went and if you did use the parallel grip hex bar? How did that go/feel compared to normal straight barbell?

  404. Jim Johann Jr at #

    I wanted to follow up on my reverse hyper comments earlier as something rather astonishing (to me anyway) has happened…my DL form has suddenly changed dramatically!! I’ve always felt my DL execution was far too lower-back-oriented. I’ve frequently heard lifters talk about engaging the glutes when DLing, but I’ve NEVER felt it…same with squatting back in the day. But, once I’d completed about 1500 weightless RH reps over a 3 week or so period, I decided to add some weight to the machine. My RH machine comes with a strap which Louie Simmons says really works the glutes…and when I started strapping on some KBs to mine…WOW I could really feel the glutes contracting at the top of the movement.

    But after my lower back compression issue started to vanish from using the reverse hyper, I started doing some individual partial DL motions after the weighted RH reps. Nothing huge on these DLs, but along the line of 310x 4 singles, then next time 310×1, 320×3 singles etc. And lo & behold on these attempts, all of a sudden I could feel the glutes engaging! It actually felt like the glutes would contract and roll up under the weight and it would just jump off the racks. And more importantly than that…no compression discomfort.

    So on Monday, I resumed my SCT/PFT training. Now I dropped back on the weights as this DL form is new and I’d like to ensure it stays with me. Plus I think I may have pushed the weight progression too aggressively, so I’m backing up a bit and will use smaller weight progressions. I’m also going to continue with the lighter DLs after the weighted RH in between SCT/PFT sessions to help me develop some muscle memory on the new form without overly taxing my “real” workouts. I’ll keep this board’s readers abreast on how that works out for me.

  405. Werewolf at #

    Hi,

    I have 1tonhooks but have problems with adjusting them.
    I tried adjusting them myself and now they are assymetrical.
    I would appreciate instructions and or tips on how to adjust them preferably youtube or other video.

    Thanks ahead for help.

  406. You should ask the manufacturer about that.

  407. Werewolf at #

    Hi Anthony,

    What does KISS you wrote it in post to me.

  408. Werewolf at #

    Hi Anthony,

    What is KISS?

  409. Werewolf at #

    Hi Anthony, 🙂

    You wrote “Bottom line you’re not lifting weights”, what am I doing then?

  410. Robert Spies at #

    How long did Mark rest before he saw the 35 pound gain, did he see the 35 pounds after six months of resting or did he see it sooner and continued to rest ?

    Thank you

    Robert Spies

  411. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    Performed another SCT/PFT workout today and it went pretty well:

    SCT DL beta – 380 x four sets of 5 second holds within 2 minutes
    SCT BP beta – 380 x four sets of 5 second holds within 2 minutes
    PFT Behind Back Wrist Curls – 2″ thick bar, 95 lbs x 34 reps in 30 seconds

    These are improved numbers from the last SCT/PFT workout on 22 Aug 16. The DL is up 30 lbs, the BP is up 20lbs. The PF# for the wrist curl dropped from 6480 to 6460, but I used 5lbs more (but dropped 2 reps).

    And in the interest of fair reporting…I started the workout off with 3sets of 12 reps with 87 lbs on th e reverse hyper maching to get the glutes primed for improved DL action. Not standard protocol, but I like doing it that way.

    I’ve decided for the next workout to head to the base gym and do the OH press, shrug and Hammer row machine. I’m finding some funny things about these two protocols. Some exercises, I really like the SCT way (DL & BP), but on others, PFT is the way to go (OHP and Hammer row). I think it’s related to motor coordination for me. I have a very difficult time keeping the OHP motion-less. In fact it is so strange I’ve actually been straining like crazy and when the 5 seconds were up..it kinda felt like the bar was already on the stops. And for the Hammer Rows…well the base personnel would toss me out if I stacked a barbell on the stack so I could do a proper SCT row on it. But on DL or shrugs, PFT is out of the question for me. There are simply too many technical aspects (breath, tight lower backs, solid-braced abs , head up position, moving the glutes first (especially in the negative portion as I tend to slump the weight down on both which is horrible for the lower back) etc.) I just can’t keep track of all of them while I’m racing the PFT stopwatch.

    I will say with all these variations built into my spreadsheets (which I color-code the PFT parts; 30sec, 1, 2, or 3 minutes) it does get a bit tedious at times. But tracking your numbers and increasing the rest intervals are probably the two biggest distinctions of Pete’s work…measuring the intensity and recovering from it.

  412. Werewolf at #

    Hi fellows 🙂

    How do I do weighted crunch (S.C.T. style) without having any pulley machine?

    Thanks for answer.

  413. Werewolf at #

    (continuation)
    The only equipment I have is dumbbells, barbells, weight plates, power cage, bench, chin/dip station.

  414. Hello Mark,

    You mentioned u came back to the gym after 4 months of resting becauce u felt ready but the workout went bad, did u rest 6 more months from that day or did u pick up were u left off with your resting and only rested 2 more months for a total of 6 months

  415. Werewolf at #

    According to your 5 second rule when do you add rest days and when do you add weight.

  416. Werewolf at #

    (cont.) Please answer.

  417. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Wolfie,

    I will gladly answer this question, after and only after, you tell me what you think the answer is. Lay out for me what you think this concept entails and how it would work. Use examples of wt x seconds held today and then what would you do in two weeks. Why would you add weight? When would you NOT add weight? Make it a couple paragraphs long and really explore the details. Think of it as a high school essay question. Really dig into it and put your answer on here for us to see.

    That might sound like me being difficult, but lifelong training will ALWAYS have a huge element of judgment in it which will require, comprehension, analysis and judging for yourself. Example..from our writings on this Topic, Mark WInchester and I have a very different perspective on how much weight to add to the bar for the next DLs. Mark uses what I consider huge increases of 50,60 or even more lbs for his sets. I think 5-10, maybe 20 is better. I use the reverse hyper machine before every workout (even the easy ones with light calisthenics) employing 3-4 sets of 8-20 reps. Pete doesn’t. In between my “real” SCT/PFT sessions I do 4 singles with increasing weight in the partial DL every Friday…neither Pete nor Mark does. But I have judged it appropriate for me. I seem to have some real motor issues with very infrequent training. I train this weekly Friday DL just to keep my motor skills on the DL sharp. I’ve tweaked my lower back a lot over the years by not paying enough attention to this “skill” aspect.

    But Pete, Mark and others on this website have found what works for them. Mark doesn’t do an A&B workout with 5 exercises in each. He does DL and some BP. The last time Pete really mentioned his training (as far as I can tell) was his 1000 lbs shrug story. He did two exercises, the shrug and some Hammer row. In something like 2 months he did 1000 & 900 respectively on these exercises…guy must tendons and ligaments like a silverback gorilla . In other words, they are judging what works for them or fits with what they want to accomplish in their workouts.

    So you lay out YOUR answer to the question first…then I’ll give you my take on it. I’ll be checking back daily for your reply.

  418. Werewolf at #

    Hi Jim Johann Jr,

    I guess the 5 sec rule means that if you manage 3 to 5 seconds on an exercise you should increase restdays by 3 days between all workouts and if you manage only 0 to 4 seconds on 1 or 2 exercises you jump 1 session day at following exercise day for these exercises. Is it right?
    I am talking about 10 exercise divided into 2 routines and using the S.C.T. training style.

    I prefer S.C.T. training style because it is easier, at least for me.
    When resting is it to recover?
    How much do you recommend one to increase in weight from progressing workout?

  419. Werewolf at #

    (Cont.)
    I meant if you manage 5 seconds or more on 3 to 5 exercises you should increase restdays by 3 between all workouts and if you only manage to progress in 1 or 2 exercises you jump those exercises next time you are to train them then train them .

    I am talking about 10 exercises divided into 2 routines and using the the S.C.T. training style.

    I prefer S.C.T. training style because it is easier, at least for me.
    When resting is it to recover?
    How much do you recommend one to increase in weight from progressing workout?

  420. Werewolf at #

    Am I right?

  421. Werewolf at #

    Is all I wrote right? Can you give me additional information that could be good to know?

  422. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Wolf,

    I don’t think you’ve got the 5 second rule exactly right, but I can see why this application could be confusing, especially with 5 exercises.

    For any given exercise, if you get the 5 seconds, you need to add some weight next session. But you don’t have to increase rest days as the current rest interval is working as evidenced by your progress (you made 5 sec). So if you made 5 seconds on all 5 exercises your progress and interval are good, for now. But that will change. The interval might be good for the next 7 workouts and you may have to change it after the next workout…there’s just no way to tell beforehand (why I talked about judgment). So if in the next workout all 5 exercises with some extra weight, you only could hold them for 2 seconds each…you probably need to add more rest days in between. That doesn’t mean you failed, it means the numbers have given you vital information relating to what you need to do to progress…that’s good stuff to know! But if you ask how many days to add…no one can give a definitive reply (well Pete can if you’re on his ESG deal). So add an extra 2 days to your interval before trying again.

    If I was doing 5 exercises, and I got 5 seconds on 3 exercises and 1-3 seconds on the other two (call it workout 1), I’d probably keep the same interval but omit those 2 exercises on the next session (workout 2). Then I’d do all 5 in workout 3, but the weights on the “missed” exercises would be the same as workout 1. But in workout 2&3 I’d be increasing the weights on the 3 exercise I got 5 seconds on. See example:

    1 Jun – DL 100×5 sec, BP 100×5 sec, CGBP 100×5 sec, Curl 100×2 sec, Crunch 100×2 sec
    Assume 1 week intervals
    8 Jun – do the B workout

    15 Jun – DL 105×5 sec, BP 105×5 sec, CGBP 105×5 sec (curl & crunch omitted)
    22 Jun – repeat B workout

    29 Jun – DL 110×5 sec, BP 110×5 sec, CGBP 110x5sec, Curl 100×5 sec, Crunch 100×5 sec
    6 Jul – repeat B workout

    13 Jul – increase all weights for DL,BP, CGBP, Curl & Crunch

    And keep in mind sooner or later you WILL have to increase the rest intervals.

    Hope this makes sense and helps!
    jim

  423. Werewolf at #

    Jim Johann Jr ,

    What do think I have not got the 5 second rule exactly right in?

    I am sorry but I do not understand you, can you please explain it simply,

    I would be grateful for answer.

  424. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Wolf,

    I’ll try. Your response reads as if you think getting 5 seconds on exercises means you need more rest days. All the 5 seconds means is you were fully successful with the weight selected for the SCT protocol and that next time you should add some more weight.

    Now it gets a bit more confusing with 5 exercise workouts, which is why I pushed you to just do 2 exercises (DL/BP) at least until you get some good experience with the SCT method.

    But here’s what Pete says in the SCT current edition on pg 51: “How will you know when to add more days off? Simple: when 2 or more of your 5 exercises do not improve. That’s a sign that you are probably not fully recovered.”

    Hope this helps!

  425. William at #

    Jim Johann Jr. – Good advice ! Have found when two of my three exercises (do three
    exercises per workout -workout A & workout B stop showing improvement have added rest days. For myself, have found once reaching the 5 seconds on SCT exercises will increase the weight some (not as fortunate to add large increases like Mark though) and find if get adequate rest, nutrtion, along with doing some relaxing activites such as swimming my recovery is stable and rewards with progress.

    Thanks for sharing your ideas !

  426. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Thanks William!

    One thing to keep in mind is that while Mark can add large increases to his DL every time he works out, he works out every 6-8 months. If you or I workout once a month on the SCT DL and add 10 lbs per…well in 6-8 months we might be up 60-80 lbs on our DL weights as well. Its just two very different paths to weight progression.

    And these different paths (more the specific details rather than the generic template) are part of what I’m trying to get across to Werewolf. Though he’s never said, I suspect he’s a fairly young guy in his early 20s. And I can certainly relate to his training angst when I was that age (well before the internet age). I remember benching three times a week because powerlifter Doug Young did and he was a behemoth of strength! All that ever gave me was very sore shoulders to the point that I actually gave up benching for over 20 years.

    But now, we’re lucky to have so much better availability for getting great training advice (same for getting the stupid crap as well). And at 56, the training angst is gone and now it’s just the training. Not to worried about becoming a powerlifting champion or the next Mr O. For me it’s the process I enjoy…grabbing the steel and lifting it.

    Best wishes!
    Jim

  427. William at #

    Welcome Jim!

    Like two paths up the same mountain to reach the top – both will get you there.

    Technology can be a blessing as well as a curse. Great information, but easy to get
    overloaded. Glad we know what works so can sort through it and get as you say “grab the steel and lifting it”.

    Same as well, no Mr. O on the horizon, just enjoying time with the iron.

  428. William at #

    Best wishes to you Jim and enjoy those results !!

  429. Werewolf at #

    Jim Johann Jr ,

    You wrote: “Your response reads as if you think getting 5 seconds on exercises means you need more rest days.”
    That was not what I wrote.

    Please tell me when to increase weight and when to increase rest days.

  430. Werewolf at #

    (continue) during “5 sec rule”.

  431. Werewolf at #

    Hi Sisco,

    Can you recommend the latest products that are possible with powercage that are the latest information.

    Thanks.

  432. Werewolf at #

    (Continue) That are most effective etc.

  433. Werewolf at #

    (continue) That is most effective for power cage training.

  434. Werewolf at #

    (continue) I don’t want e-book. Sorry for writing many posts.

  435. Werewolf at #

    Do you have train smart in ordinary (not e-book) book. My printer is broken. I would like Static Contraction Seminar on CD with it and the Train Smart in ordinary book form.

  436. Werewolf at #

    I have tried to buy e-book Train Smart (with seminar) and to download the free report unsuccesfully.

    Please help me get the products.

  437. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    My previous SCT workout was on Oct 14, and the latest was on Nov 12. In the spirit of fair reporting, I will mention that on 21 & 28 Oct and 3 Nov I did those little DL practice sessions employing 3-4 singles from 310-420. On Nov 3 I did 420 and my back felt a bit overtrained, so I increased the rest period by 2 extra days and the result was better than I had hoped. I was planning to do 430 on the DL but felt so strong after the warm ups I jumped to 450 for an easy 5 second hold. Here’s the workout notation:

    DL – 450x 1: 5 sec hold (up from 405 in Oct)
    BP – 430x 1: 5 sec hold
    Behind Back Wrist Curl (2″ thick bar) 97.5 lbs x 38 reps in :30 (total weight increased from 3230 to 3705 same :30) PFT -style

    BTW – 4×10 with 125lbs on the reverse hyper before everything…to me that’s like putting on workout shorts and a t-shirt…it’s just part of getting ready!

    I have stopped doing the beta SCT in favor of doing only 1 set for 5 seconds with heavier weight. My rationale? It strikes me that doing the extra 3 beta sets for 5 seconds really just eats into your recovery. Pete’s point is that extra holding time is less intense so in spite of my train-aholic tendencies, I’ve decided to go with the basic SCT format.

  438. Jim Johann Jr. at #

    My previous SCT workout was on Oct 14, and the latest was on Nov 12. In the spirit of fair reporting, I will mention that on 21 & 28 Oct and 3 Nov I did those little DL practice sessions employing 3-4 singles from 310-420. On Nov 3 I did 420 and my back felt a bit overtrained, so I increased the rest period by 2 extra days and the result was better than I had hoped. I was planning to do 430 on the DL but felt so strong after the warm ups I jumped to 450 for an easy 5 second hold. Here’s the workout notation:

    DL – 450x 1: 5 sec hold (up from 405 in Oct)
    BP – 430x 1: 5 sec hold
    Behind Back Wrist Curl (2″ thick bar) 97.5 lbs x 38 reps in :30 (total weight increased from 3230 to 3705 same :30) PFT -style

    BTW – 4×10 with 125lbs on the reverse hyper before everything…to me that’s like putting on workout shorts and a t-shirt…it’s just part of getting ready!

    I have stopped doing the beta SCT in favor of doing only 1 set for 5 seconds with heavier weight. My rationale? It strikes me that doing the extra 3 beta sets for 5 seconds really just eats into your recovery. Pete’s point is that extra holding time is less intense so in spite of my train-aholic tendencies, I’ve decided to go with the basic SCT format.

  439. William at #

    Jim Johann Jr.- Thanks for sharing and Inspiring. Really valid points on intensity as well as recovery.
    Best to you !!

  440. Jim Johann Jr at #

    My last workout was 12 Nov and this just completed one was done on 10 Dec 16. One difference was I could only get in one of my partial DL practices over the time frame. Just kinda worked out that way with some commitments, in particular my little girl’s 5 day Nutcracker ballet practice and performances and me learning to be an unpaid stage hand 🙂

    So with about 28 days in between the main workout, here’s what happened today:

    DL – 510x 1: 2 sec hold (kinda forgot to shoot for 5 seconds)
    BP – 450x 1: 1.5 sec hold
    Behind Back Wrist Curl (2″ thick bar) 100 lbs x 38 reps in :30 (total weight increased from 3705 to 3800 same :30) PFT -style

    4×10 with 150lbs on the reverse hyper before everything, as always.

    The DL for 2 seconds was just me being so happy to get it so easily that I admired myself for 2 seconds while holding it, then set it down without thinking about the 5 second part. Like Pete always says, “Train with your Brain”…mine was on Xmas break already.

    The bench just felt heavy. I’ve really have to get a better bar for this exercise. It’s OK for the DL but its just too whippy for the BP.

    The BB Wrist Curls improved and felt strong on them!

    Hope everyones’ training is going well!

  441. Werewolf at #

    Hi dear fellows,

    How do I do to biceps curls so they progress. I have tried static bicep contraction high and low. I have read that you should make new workout with only non-progressing exercise. That will lead to too many rest days or? What do I do with my biceps curls to progress in them?

    I progress in my other exercises.
    I decided to start training from low weight.

  442. Werewolf at #

    Jim Johann Jr or other person,

    How do you know when to increase rest days.

  443. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Wolfie,

    Here’s the info straight from the Train SMart ebook:

    SCT current edition on pg 51: “How will you know when to add more days off? Simple: when 2 or more of your 5 exercises do not improve. That’s a sign that you are probably not fully recovered.”

    Did you do the static hold for 5 seconds? If yes then next time in the gym add some weight. If not, then add an extra couple days and shoot for 5 seconds.

  444. William at #

    Jim Johann Jr. is spot on there with the advice from the Train Smart ebook. This advice has assisted me many a time in improving both my progress and especially balancing my recovery as the workouts became more intense.

  445. Werewolf at #

    In SCT current edition (perhaps) they did not write what you said on the page you mentioned i.e. 51.

  446. Werewolf at #

    Is the most current edition 2009 Train Smart?

  447. Jim Johann Jr at #

    I have the 2013 edition…don’t know if there is a newer version.

  448. Werewolf at #

    In my edition of Train Smart it is written 2009 on cover. Are they the same as your 2013 edition?

  449. William at #

    Hi Jim Johann Jr. – Was checking and my edition of Train Smart that has 2009 on the cover is version 1.1. The newer edition I have is version 1.2. Does this match your version there Jim ?

  450. Jim Johann Jr at #

    William,

    My copy of TS just has “Copyright 2013” on it…I didn’t a version designator anywhere. Interestingly enough, I also have a soft cover version titled, “Static Contraction Training” with a copyright date of 1999. As it relates to frequency and recovery, the 1999 version on page 89 says, “If, on any workout, you fail to make progress on 3 out of 5 exercises, it’s time to add an extra 3 days off between all workouts from now on.” Back then Pete was recommending a static hold from 5-15 seconds wherein you’d add weight if you held for 15 seconds.

    This is one of the points I really like about the PFT/SCT instruction and philosophy…it evolves as more data comes to light. But additionally, we’re provided with options depending on our goals. No matter how much Pete likes the efficiency of SCT, his mass gain study says if you don’t care about efficiency AND if you want to gain maximum muscle mass, use the PFT principles and 30 second timed sets on 6 exercises.

    With that info, I can make an informed decision which direction I take. Now I don’t think Pete really ever suggests mixing PFT and SCT, but I do it because for me, DL and Shrugs are simply too easy for me to tweak my back when I’m racing the clock. Overhead pressing works great with PFT but for BP (at least with my equipment), SCT works better. Irrespective of the mixing, the key principles are progressive intensity (weight) and ever-increasing recovery periods. Toss in a bit of patience and you’ll improve over time.

  451. Werewolf at #

    My Train Smart 2009 is version 1.2

    Is it still the most recent Train Smart?

    Thanks for answer.

  452. William at #

    John,

    Appreciate you sharing about your TS books. Agree with you how PFT / SCT with its instruction and philosophy is ongoing ever improving to help us meet our own individual goals.

    This is why PFT / SCT truly leads the way for the future of health and exercise.Especially in light of Pete’s Mass Gain study which showed if time efficiency is not your main priority and mass is then you can, as you mentioned, use the PFT principles and 30 second timed sets on 6 exercises. He even currently is researching into the Power Factor Compound Reps workout which has also produced great results.

    Even though Pete never directly has mentioned blending PFT with SCT, feel he has allowed us the personal choices with the information he has provided to chose what works best to meet our own unique goals.

    As you mentioned utilize those basic principles of progressive intensity (weight) while increasing recovery periods to match. Then salt and pepper with patience and give your body time to do it.

    Continually inspired by your updates and Best to you !!

  453. Jim Johann Jr at #

    William and all others,

    In the spirit of sharing aspects of older TS information, here’s a particularly memorable piece from the 1999 SCT book that I have never forgotten!

    On page 60 there is a photo of a pretty good-sized athlete in a power rack and he is shrugging 600 lbs. The caption is, “Shrug this weight once a month and you’ll never worry about getting weak.”

    This is one of those pictures and captions that once you see it…it makes a HUGE impression on you. Maybe Pete has a way he can publish that picture and the caption on his website for all to see??

    Once you’ve seen this, it makes you really think about what we’re all trying to achieve with the SCT/PFT methodology. I try to picture me deadlifting or shrugging 600, 700 or more pounds on alternating months…DL in January, shrug in Feb and so on. Throw in some BP, OHP and maybe some Hammer Rows using the PFT style and I think you have most of the bases covered in your training.

    Merry Christmas to all!
    Jim

  454. William at #

    Jim,

    You remind of the phrase “a picture is worth a thousand words”.

    So true, the shrug, alternated with DL while adding in BP, OHP as well as Row using the PFT / SCT style that suits your goals is all that is necessary and then allow the body to recover and reward you for your efforts.

    Thanks Jim for reminding us to keep it simple and intense while seasoned with rest to grow.

    Merry Christmas to you everyone!!

    William

  455. William at #

    Pete, Jim, and others,

    Please share your feedback on Power Factor Compound Reps and the Mass Gain Study workout. For example if one has promoted more mass gain, feedback from various clients, and your thoughts on which you have used. Hoping this will provide information for those considering which to do – Thank you for creating these Pete and as more enjoy their benefits may news spread they become more common place.

  456. William, I haven’t run a side-by-side study on those two workouts to determine which one delivers the most total gains or the fastest gains. (It takes a ton of people to determine those things with any degree of certainty, and the reality is you still just end up with averages than you can’t promise to any individual.)

    What I’ve been struck by is how many people gain 5-10 lbs of mass in a relative handful of workouts. And to be honest, I don’t think it’s the magic of any particular exercise or combination of exercises, I think it’s just paying attention to maximizing peak power output and then measuring recovery so that it all stays progressive from workout to workout.

    We’ve got regular, middle-aged guys hoisting the equivalent of 10-30 midsize CARS per minute. Nobody does that in a gym. Most people never really push themselves enough to even grunt or grimace. Those who do often use weight and rep combination that don’t deliver peak power anyway. (We can all go to total failure with a 10lb dumbbell if we want. Doesn’t mean we hit peak power output at any point.)

    Whenever you walk into the gym you’re going to either generate LESS total power output than last time, or the SAME amount, or MORE. Only the last option will stimulate new muscle growth. And there are so many combinations of weight, reps, and time that I’m still amazed that people attempt it without a clear plan that’s in black and white.

  457. William at #

    Pete, really appreciate your thoughts and input. Especially agree with you that it comes down to focusing on and maximizing our peak power output while balancing it with our recovery.

    Great analogy on peak output as unfortunately most never come close. Compared to the examples you have given from clients who have, such as Joel Waldman, or 50 year old Jonathan, who completely shatter the myth of what needs to be and can be accomplished when one focuses on power output.

    Hope as more experience your workouts while sharing their results the word will spread on what is a properly planned workout and the necessary components.

    Best to you Pete and your family, along with everyone for a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!!

  458. Werewolf at #

    Hi dear Sisco,:)

    2 popular post titles don’t show only picture and number of comments. I can’t read the 2 popular posts because of that? The 2 popular posts were about strength.

  459. Werewolf at #

    Dear Sisco, 🙂

    I like the Static Contraction Training and your site but I am not able to look at 2 popular posts that are about strength.
    I would be very glad if you could fix it.

  460. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Well I tried something a little different today since I really dislike going to the base gym and fighting with crowds toget the equipment I need. I was thinking about hte weights and stuff I already have and have come up with a sustitute workout for the semi-annual Shrug/OH Press/Hammer Row workout.

    At least on the base smith machine, it’s not exactly like like a free barbell. It seems to have some kind of a counterbalancing aspect to it which allows for heavier weights than just a barbell. So that meant today’s basement shrugs were just guesses as opposed to hard science.

    Additionally, I decided to substitute heavy 1DB Rows as I do not have a Hammer Row at home. But with a partial movement, hooks and a timer things worked out pretty well. But the movemnet while similar to the hammer row, there are other physical pieces in a DB row that don’t occur in the Hammer Row…balancing the body for one thing takes some serious mental concentration!

    Now, I have NO WAY to adequately approximate an OH Press in a smith machine in my basement. So I just did 1DB Presses alternated RH to LH for reps of 2-3-5-2-3-5…for as long as possible (capped at 5 minutes). Anyone who is trying to perform SCT or PFT at home will sometimes face equipment limitiations. For examples, there comes a point with fast-paced DB presses where the DB gets rather unwieldy and control starts to diminish. Since I love my teeth, I’ll rest a few and then attempt a few more.

    Anyway, as a base workout here’s what occurred:

    Partial BB Shrugs…a couple warm ups and then 460×1;5 second hold
    DB Rows – got 121×30 reps both RH and LH in 1 min each
    DB Press – 51 x2-3-5-2-3-5-2-3-5 left and right finished at 4:52

    I would expect some technique improvement on the rows, and am looking forward to this workout again sometime in February. I’ll try these substitutes for a few workouts and will decide around the summer time whether to keep them or go back to the base gym. Who knows…maybe by then I’ll be using 161 on the rows and 71 on the presses!?

    BTW – the reason the DB weights end in 1 is that the old ironmind Big Boy DBs had a 20″+ bar and with the heavy duty collars, mine weigh 11 lbs each. Makes for some interesting miscalculations at times!

    Best to everyone!

  461. Werewolf at #

    Is other posters here also without 2 popular posts for strenght?

    Best wishes to all.

  462. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Here’s where the math aspect of Pete’s system is so valuable…oh and humbling While I posted yesterday’s “different” workout yesterday, the math on the 1DB Rows and OH Presses is rather depressing. In spite of the rows and presses kicking my ass, the PF numbers are appallingly low. Here’s my analysis:

    The last time I did the Hammer Row, I did 340×40 reps in 1 minute for an 13600 PF. The DB rows were 3630 each for their minute for a total of 7260 weight lifted but a PF of only 3630. So, I took more time, lifted less weight, and had a much lower PF number…good job me!

    Very similar on the OH pressing, when I last used the smith machine OHP, I did 225×50 reps for a 11250 PF#, while the DB press was only PF# of 628. Total weight lifted was 11,250 vs 3060.

    Obviously, the numbers drive us to using the other equipment. But this is still an instructive example for those with equipment limitations. For example, I could improve my DB press numbers over time but never anywhere near the smith machine numbers! If (and this is a ridiculously huge if) I could perform the same DB press workout but instread of using 51 Lbs, I use 101Lbs. That would generate, with 60 total reps, a PF# of 1245 (divide total weight by 4.8666) with a total weight lifted of 6060. And realistically I’d have to be a cyborg to press like that and the numbers are still way lower than the smith machine OHP numbers.

    Now, here is an aspect I struggle with in all this. I know DB pressing is harder than machine pressing as it’s comparable to pull ups vs multi-cammed pulldowns. I know its some mechanical issue but can’t even name it. But if I had my choice of performing 200 lbs on a barbell press or a smith machine press for 20 reps, or two, 100 DBs for 20 reps…I’d take the DBs! If you could do that, you would be a monster compared to the 200 pound smith presser.

    I don’t understand the physics behind this, but I know it’s true. Anyway, looks like I’ll be back at the base gym in a few weeks 🙂

  463. William at #

    Jim, always enjoy and learn from your posts. 🙂

    You brought up some great points for home gym trainers applying SCT / PFT protocols.
    As we both have noticed, “the math aspect of Pete’s system is so valuable” is worth more than its weight in gold for the information it provides.

    Perhaps with a power rack at home would help. Of course, a good base gym is probably easier for some.

    Looking forward to more of your feedback and Best to you in workouts and the week ahead too!

  464. Werewolf at #

    Hi fellow SCT/PFT practitioners, 🙂

    Am I the only one without 2 popular posts on strenght?

  465. Mark Winchester at #

    After 3 yrs of experimentation I am now convinced that its best to train in cycles of 1x every wk or so for as many successive w/outs as possible until you stop responding then take an equal or evern 2x as much time off to recover then repeat the process. The old schoolers like Bob Peoples called it “going stale on a lift”. They handled it exactly as I’ve described above. Peoples would train the deadlift repeatedly until he went stale then switch to the squat then repeat.

  466. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Hey Mark!

    I suspect I’m not the only reader who’d like to hear more details on your 3 years of experimentation. As far as we knew you were deadlifting once every 6 months or so with sometimes doing the BP. Now it sounds like you’re suggesting a higher frequency…or are you providing a template to go from PFT/SCT newbie to DLing every 6 months?

    If you have the time, please provide some of these details.

  467. Mark Winchester at #

    Sure. I dropped the conventional straight bar deadlift in favor of the much, much more effective Hexbar. I also dropped the use of partial-range reps (surprise!). I lift just as I suggested in cycles. Coincidentally this is also how Casey Viator (probably unintentionally) trained while he with Arthur Jones in Deland, Fl. Here’s a vid of me DL’ing 350×10. It ain’t jaw dropping by any means. I still don’t know why I stopped at 10reps I know I had another 5 or so in the tank? I’m sure once I have 500lbs on the bar I’ll have added significantly more muscle mass.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az-O0qFiAJU

  468. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Thanks Mark and great job on the hex bar DLs! I must say I am fighting off the desire to go out and purchase one of those bars…I’ve pulled up the website probably a dozen times and managed to not click “buy”. I’m sorta against the idea of buying a bunch of olympic plates, though I’ve purchased 150 lbs in 25 lbs increments for my reverse hyper machine…so probably by the summer I’ll do it.

    BTW – why the deletion of the partial range reps? You gettin’ the urge to do some masters powerlifting?

    Best wishes!
    Jim

  469. Mark Winchester at #

    Jim
    I increased the ROM of my hexbar DLs because, I’m now convinced it’s impossible to adequately activate the glutes & hams using 2 in reps. Bear in mind I am. NOT doing 24in. full range foolishness. I use the upper handles and move the bar approx. 10 inches. I could be wrong about using decreased frequency, only time will tell. Remember I was using 565lbs in the straight bar DL and had to drop to 325lbs due to the increased ROM. I’m sure once I’m using 500+lbs in full range hex bar DL I’ll need much longer than 2 weeks to recover.

    I still believe in PFT. The basic lbs/min. formula still applies. As Pete says “Once you start thinking in lbs/min. your goals become crystal clear. As hair splitting as it seems from w/out to w/out it’s the only way to precisely evaluate output. It ain’t perfect but it’s a helluva lot better than guessing.

  470. Jim Johann Jr at #

    Mark,

    Interesting point on adequate activation of the glutes and hams with the 2″ reps…especially if you don’t go to full extension/lockout. Powerlifters when DLing really emphasize driving the hips forward once the bar goes above the knee all the way to lockout. And at that lockout point you can really observe the glute activation.

    The weight drop once you went to a longer ROM makes sense…again old powerlifting lore was for squatters who did NOT go to parallel…every inch short of parallel was worth 40 pounds. So if your 315 lbs sky-high squat was 3″ short of parallel then your actual legal squat was only 195 (315-(40×3)=195).

    In the 1997 PFT book Pete mentioned the work or horsepower formula that included distance, but he omitted distance from the the PF# due to the difficulty in measuring it for each rep and second, in general it doesn’t really change unless you’re still growing. I wonder if Pete was including waist growth in that??

    “The basic lbs/min. formula still applies. As Pete says “Once you start thinking in lbs/min. your goals become crystal clear.”…absolutely agree but with a caveat. You cannot compare your old 2″ PF#s to your new 10″ PFs. That’ll just make you crazy. The extra 8″ of work both up and down is significant. Just for laughs I just measured my 1DB OH press ROM and it’s almost 21”. So if I’m doing 51lbsx30 reps with both arms but I’m moving an additional 42″ each rep…maybe 225×50 reps on a smith machine witha 2″ ROM are fairly similar. See…I’m already making myself crazy.

    Bottom line – try to be consistent on the exercises, use the math, adjust frequency as required. If you have to change exercises for whatever reason, do it but realize the differences and don’t make yourself crazy!

  471. Mark Winchester at #

    Read THE WISDOM OF MIKE MENTZER.

  472. William at #

    Mark – Valid points on still focusing on improving your PF #s.
    Curious are you still only doing the deadlift, or including other exercises as well?

    Btw, agree that Mike’s “The Wisdom of Mike Mentzer” is a good read and quite applicable.

    Looking forward to hearing more from your updates.

    Wishing you and everyone here a Great New Year!!

  473. William at #

    Read – High Intensity Training the Mike Mentzer Way

  474. Mark Winchester at #

    William – No, I no longer do the inferior straight bar deadlift. The hex/trap bar is a vastly superior & spinally healthier exercise. There is no need to do any other exercises. It stresses ALL the major muscles of the body.

  475. Hi Mark,

    How can you say that any one exercise will stress every major muscle of your body?
    There is no such exercise.

    In order to build maximum muscle, and fully develop your physique proportionately, you need to do all 42 (or more) of the different types of motions that the human body can perform with weights.

    And that’s because each of those motions recruits and works different muscle fibers in your body.
    And those 42.types of motions should ideally be done so as to achieve maximum intensity, for maximum muscle-growth stimulation.

    And obviously, there is no way you can include all 42 of those different types of motions into one exercise.

  476. Werewolf at #

    Hi fellows,
    When do you cancel rest days? Is it when you have progressed in 3,4 or 5 exercise of a workout of 5 exercises?

  477. William at #

    Hi Mark,

    Good idea, focus on the money making exercise that rewards the most for you. Remember, the HealthLift material you shared with us.

    Best to You there and keep us updated!

  478. Anthony at #

    Pete and whoever else. Whats your opinion on the different joint angles. For SCT… For example doing a hold at the top strongest range and then one in the middle range. In terms of neural efficiency or developing neurological efficiency… Would doing multiple joint angles have any benefit in your view!!…

  479. Any weightlifting tactic, done properly in terms of progressive overload, will give you a benefit. Only you can decide if the trade-offs are worth the effort. Perhaps you have a special need for peak strength in your weak range or mid-range. The only way to get more of that specific range of strength is to lift very heavy weights in that range. If it’s worth the extra time and increased risk of injury to you then you should do it.

    Most people I talk to have goals that relate to lean mass gain, and if they can gain 10lbs of new muscle mass without risking injury handling heavy weights in their weak range they consider it a win. But a pro arm-wrestler, for example, would have different priorities.

  480. Anthony at #

    you said The only way to get more of that specific range of strength is to lift very heavy weights in that range…. Id have to disagree I found after doing SCT for a couple years now my full range lifs increased as well! So it actually transferred all over!!…

  481. Yes, it does that for some people. They seem to be a minority. I’ve seen +90% transference and I’ve seen 0%. Can’t spot a rule of thumb either. Go figure.

  482. Werewolf at #

    Please reactivate the 2 popular posts on strenght on my computer.
    I have tried ordering:
    MASS Gain Study Part 1 & 2
    but failed.

  483. I have no idea what you are referring to. People are able to buy the Mass Gain study ebook every day. I’ll watch for your order to come in today.

    http://www.precisiontraining.com/products/mass-gain-study-part-1/

  484. Werewolf at #

    I tried, they said my e-mail and password were wrong or something. Please help.

  485. Werewolf at #

    I also tried all I could to fix it.

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